Author Topic: Committee of the Whole  (Read 6629 times)

MaddogLutheran

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3490
  • It's my fantasy football avatar...
    • View Profile
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2007, 06:06:17 PM »
Just a computer glitch, I guess.  Now have to watch tape-delayed Windows Media Player version.
I had a problem too, thought it was my corporate network.  Perhaps the flash video server was overwhelmed...it was the most anticipated point of the assembly.
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Christopher Miller

  • Guest
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2007, 06:07:27 PM »
Here's the question:  Can the dissenting church bodies handle an influx of 3-4 million disaffected Lutherans?

scott3

  • Guest
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2007, 06:08:46 PM »
Here's the question: Can the dissenting church bodies handle an influx of 3-4 million disaffected Lutherans?

God is in charge.  If needed, a way will be found.

frluther1517

  • Guest
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2007, 06:10:00 PM »


That I will. I feel a cold chilling sickness as I watch this. There is no joy to be found in any of this, no "Schadenfreude" only a deeply gnawing sense of sadness, one that does not follow any reasoned lines of "Well, this is only a natural development for the ELCA" but a painful cry from the heart for what this means for the Lutheran confession in this church body, and that is what I find so painful and the greater pain is the consideration of how this must be causing so many in the ELCA who oppose these trends to feel the even greater sense of anguish and turmoil. :( :( :(

May our Heavenly Father bless, guard and keep you all in the grace of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit. The blessings of the one, true God, the Blessed and Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, be with you! Amen and Amen.

Thank you Pr. Mccain and Pr. Yakimow. I appreciate your prayers and your compassion (your suffering-with us) in this very trying and difficult time. It is especially sad and disheartening to me, a first call pastor who was ordained only 2 months ago. It was difficult during the 05 assembly and now even more difficult as a new pastor within the ELCA. I am sure it is especially difficult for those pastors who have served 10, 20 or 30 years. Thank you for your prayers and your walking with us during this time.

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2007, 06:10:43 PM »
Sadly, there are many other points of serious doctrinal disagreements between the ELCA and The LCMS and this may well prevent folks from entering The LCMS who can not in good conscience accept the confession of The LCMS on these issues. I would suspect however there will be other alternatives for disaffected members, congregations and pastors of the ELCA should they decide that they can not in good conscience remain a member of the ELCA if it does accept actively homosexual persons as ordained ministers in its clergy ranks.

Perhaps however this might prove an opportunity for ELCA Lutherans carefully to examine how things have reached this point. What theological assumptions and positions have led to these events? Could it be that a theological direction taken many, many years ago has led naturally, logically and inevitably to this point? I say this with all due respect, but perhaps this might be a blessed outcome of these circumstances.

In my experience as a parish pastor, these issues were "flash points" for members of the ELCA to wake up and realize things have gone terribly wrong. As they examined their church body's doctrinal positions and examined carefully, and contrasted, the position of other Lutherans, they came to the conclusion that these things are not isolated issues one from another. I received with joy a number of former members of the ELCA who could not longer support a church they believed was moving so radically away from a faithful understanding and proclamation of God's Holy Word. They joined my congregation as some of my most knowledgeable and well informed members, who could speak eloquently of the blessings of a strong, traditional, confessionally Lutheran doctrinal position and served as an inspiration and encouragement to "cradle Missourians" in my parish who otherwise would be prone simply to ignore these things.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 06:15:09 PM by ptmccain »

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43152
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2007, 06:28:38 PM »
I received with joy a number of former members of the ELCA who could not longer support a church they believed was moving so radically away from a faithful understanding and proclamation of God's Holy Word. They joined my congregation as some of my most knowledgeable and well informed members, who could speak eloquently of the blessings of a strong, traditional, confessionally Lutheran doctrinal position and served as an inspiration and encouragement to "cradle Missourians" in my parish who otherwise would be prone simply to ignore these things.
In my last two parishes, a number, perhaps even a majority, of the people who joined the church came from LCMS. As far as I know, they didn't leave nor did they join for doctrinal issues, but more for feelings of being accepted, for worship services that meant something to them. One even stated at the end of a service, "I no longer think that worship is a waste of time." I remember remarking at my former congregation that over half the council members were former LCMS folks.

In a large study of dropouts in the Presbyterian Church concluded that it was not doctrines or programs that drove people away (and neither would changing doctrines or new programs bring them back). For most of the drop outs, church just became a non-important part of their lives.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2007, 06:55:32 PM »
I preferred people joining my congregation who did so based on conviction and knowledgeable discernment of the confession of their church body. When they get their feelings hurt in your parish, potentially, will they slip away yet again to another church that makes them feel better?

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43152
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2007, 07:17:39 PM »
I preferred people joining my congregation who did so based on conviction and knowledgeable discernment of the confession of their church body. When they get their feelings hurt in your parish, potentially, will they slip away yet again to another church that makes them feel better?
Who knows? Perhaps even more of a question is how many of the new members will remain active after I leave. In smaller congregations there is a sense that the (new) members join the pastor. (There's almost nothing else for them to join or get involved in outside of worship.) Some have said that they have come here because of me. While that helps the ego, I hope that it's really because of the gospel that is proclaimed and experienced each Sunday. That is the top priority at the congregation I've been called to. Not once was I asked any doctrinal (or even sexuality) questions.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ROB_MOSKOWITZ

  • Guest
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2007, 11:56:18 PM »
I preferred people joining my congregation who did so based on conviction and knowledgeable discernment of the confession of their church body. When they get their feelings hurt in your parish, potentially, will they slip away yet again to another church that makes them feel better?
Who knows? Perhaps even more of a question is how many of the new members will remain active after I leave. In smaller congregations there is a sense that the (new) members join the pastor. (There's almost nothing else for them to join or get involved in outside of worship.) Some have said that they have come here because of me. While that helps the ego, I hope that it's really because of the gospel that is proclaimed and experienced each Sunday. That is the top priority at the congregation I've been called to. Not once was I asked any doctrinal (or even sexuality) questions.

As the pastor of 2 small congregations I am happy to say my experience is much different.  I was asked them in my call process. 
We have much to get involved in outside of worship, the folks are well versed in scripture and I answer doctrinal questions all the time.   
But then again I use confessions in my preaching and we are studying the BOC for some time now.

Rob Moskowitz

Dave_Poedel

  • Guest
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2007, 01:16:37 AM »
I am really worried about this assembly.  It appears from watching the votes being taken that this assembly is voting like a big Rubber Stamp.  I would not be surprised if this motion passes tomorrow, but only time will tell.  I urge all our brothers and sisters in the LC-MS to pray for us who fight and struggle for orthodoxy within the ELCA. 



I checked this board late in the evening, but was praying fervently during debate.  I had an emergency hospital call to make and by the time I returned, the session was over for the day.  Thanks for the synopsis.  I guess this means I will have to get online early tomorrow (we are an hour earlier here in AZ) and try not to have any emergencies so I can be glued to the computer screen.

ROB_MOSKOWITZ

  • Guest
Re: Committee of the Whole
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2007, 10:03:31 AM »
Here's the question: Can the dissenting church bodies handle an influx of 3-4 million disaffected Lutherans?

Depends on the other church bodies, thier structure and the necessary changes to the nature of the influx.

If the influx is individuals as we have already seen over the last few years the answer is yes. I believe the local LCMS congregations has experienced this as well.

If the answer is congregations, I believe the LCMC can for example given it requires little to no change in the congregation and there is ample ministers to serve.

Rob Moskowitz
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 10:05:21 AM by ROB_MOSKOWITZ »