Author Topic: National Day of Prayer  (Read 6792 times)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2021, 07:48:37 AM »
Pr. Austin,

How do you understand the words of the holy Apostle? “ 1 John 2:23 (KJV) “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.” Does it have any implication for a Christian’s participation in a national day of prayer?

I believe that the Johannine writings make a distinction between "God" and "Father." No one can have a relationship with God as "Father" without the Son. It's significant that Jesus says that no one can come to the Father except through me, rather than no one can come to God except through me. Without Jesus, we cannot know, or be in relationship with God as Father. Without the Son, there is no Father. That doesn't preclude God from being God, the authority and creator of all peoples on earth.

And the Christological/Trinitarian confusion/error rears its ugly head yet again. 

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9. "I and the Father are one." John 10:30

Exactly. Jesus does not say, "He who has seen me has seen God." Nor, "I and God are one." As I stated above, for John there is a distinction between the word "God" and the use of the term, "Father."

And the error continues.
 ::)


What error?

For Jesus to say "I and God are one" would be a nonsensical redundancy. Jesus is expressing the Holy Trinity.

"So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God...The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten."
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

peter_speckhard

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2021, 08:30:10 AM »

Maybe God has made a determination; maybe not. Maybe God‘s mind will change about the decision that was made. We don’t know.
I have said it here before. Anyone who gets into the presence of God in eternity gets there through Jesus, whether they knew it or not.


That is a really disquieting opinion. Never mind the question of whether something is the Word of the Lord; even if it is we can't count on it according to you. There is a lot we don't know, but according to you there isn't anything we can know even if God tells it to us.

D. Engebretson

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2021, 08:45:13 AM »
It has been asked if the prayer has to be specifically in the name of Jesus to be valid.  I think that this misses the role that faith plays in prayer.  If prayer is the conversation of the believer with God, then anything without faith in the true God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) fails to really be a prayer.  It may contain familiar, biblical-sounding words, but they are still just words spoken apart from faith.

I think of Matthew 7:21 - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

And what is this "will of God"?
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6:40

Can those who fail to believe in the Son truly pray to God?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2021, 09:05:28 AM »
Peter:
That is a really disquieting opinion. Never mind the question of whether something is the Word of the Lord; even if it is we can't count on it according to you. There is a lot we don't know, but according to you there isn't anything we can know even if God tells it to us.
Me:
Now who has trouble reading? I have many times said that I confess that the faith of the Christian church is true, that it is something  we know. something reliable. something which carries the promises of God to us.
Where have I said in this exchange anything contrary to that? I’ve said that if anyone gets to the Father in eternity, it will be through Jesus, whether they know it or not.
Fantasy/comic scenario:
A somewhat shaken, dazed person stands in front of the heavenly throne. “Where am I?”
God the Father: in heaven before my eternal throne.
Dazed person: How did I get here? I wasn’t what you would call “religious.”
Jesus (stepping forward from his place to the right of the Father): I got you here. It’s a Long story. Don’t ask.
Dazed person: OK, gee, thanks! What about my good buddy, Fred?
Jesus: Another long story. Better not to ask.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minnesota. Interested in faith related to today’s life; and in church history, choral singing, cooking, movies and live theater.

peter_speckhard

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #79 on: May 09, 2021, 10:22:51 AM »
Peter:
That is a really disquieting opinion. Never mind the question of whether something is the Word of the Lord; even if it is we can't count on it according to you. There is a lot we don't know, but according to you there isn't anything we can know even if God tells it to us.
Me:
Now who has trouble reading?


I have many times said that I confess that the faith of the Christian church is true, that it is something  we know. something reliable. something which carries the promises of God to us.
Where have I said in this exchange anything contrary to that?
You wrote: Maybe God has made a determination; maybe not. Maybe God‘s mind will change about the decision that was made. We don’t know.

Charles Austin

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #80 on: May 09, 2021, 10:37:15 AM »
We do not know in detail what God may do. How could we possibly know that? God has told us some things, but not everything. And we may have misunderstood a thing or two.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minnesota. Interested in faith related to today’s life; and in church history, choral singing, cooking, movies and live theater.

Dan Fienen

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2021, 12:10:46 PM »
We do not know in detail what God may do. How could we possibly know that? God has told us some things, but not everything. And we may have misunderstood a thing or two.
But what you wrote, that God hasn't told us everything or we may have misunderstood. You said that God may have changed His mind. That is different.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2021, 12:46:18 PM »
You said that God may have changed His mind. That is different.

Uh oh! Here it comes...  ::)
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2021, 01:23:51 PM »
Pr. Austin,

How do you understand the words of the holy Apostle? “ 1 John 2:23 (KJV) “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.” Does it have any implication for a Christian’s participation in a national day of prayer?

I believe that the Johannine writings make a distinction between "God" and "Father." No one can have a relationship with God as "Father" without the Son. It's significant that Jesus says that no one can come to the Father except through me, rather than no one can come to God except through me. Without Jesus, we cannot know, or be in relationship with God as Father. Without the Son, there is no Father. That doesn't preclude God from being God, the authority and creator of all peoples on earth.

And the Christological/Trinitarian confusion/error rears its ugly head yet again. 

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9. "I and the Father are one." John 10:30

Exactly. Jesus does not say, "He who has seen me has seen God." Nor, "I and God are one." As I stated above, for John there is a distinction between the word "God" and the use of the term, "Father."

And the error continues.
 ::)


What error?

For Jesus to say "I and God are one" would be a nonsensical redundancy. Jesus is expressing the Holy Trinity.

"So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God...The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten."


Yet John pretty much says, Jesus is God.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (1:1)


I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2021, 01:25:14 PM »

Maybe God has made a determination; maybe not. Maybe God‘s mind will change about the decision that was made. We don’t know.
I have said it here before. Anyone who gets into the presence of God in eternity gets there through Jesus, whether they knew it or not.


That is a really disquieting opinion. Never mind the question of whether something is the Word of the Lord; even if it is we can't count on it according to you. There is a lot we don't know, but according to you there isn't anything we can know even if God tells it to us.


What God tells us gets interpreted by us; thus we have the ELCA and the LCMS and many other Christians who interpret God's words in different ways.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven W Bohler

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #85 on: May 09, 2021, 01:26:58 PM »

Maybe God has made a determination; maybe not. Maybe God‘s mind will change about the decision that was made. We don’t know.
I have said it here before. Anyone who gets into the presence of God in eternity gets there through Jesus, whether they knew it or not.


That is a really disquieting opinion. Never mind the question of whether something is the Word of the Lord; even if it is we can't count on it according to you. There is a lot we don't know, but according to you there isn't anything we can know even if God tells it to us.


What God tells us gets interpreted by us; thus we have the ELCA and the LCMS and many other Christians who interpret God's words in different ways.

And when God says "up" and you interpret that to mean "down", or He says "wet" and you take it as "dry", the problem is with God.  Or so you say.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #86 on: May 09, 2021, 01:27:02 PM »
Can those who fail to believe in the Son truly pray to God?


That wasn't the question. Rather, does the Triune God hear the prayers of those who do not believe in that God?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #87 on: May 09, 2021, 01:29:05 PM »

Maybe God has made a determination; maybe not. Maybe God‘s mind will change about the decision that was made. We don’t know.
I have said it here before. Anyone who gets into the presence of God in eternity gets there through Jesus, whether they knew it or not.


That is a really disquieting opinion. Never mind the question of whether something is the Word of the Lord; even if it is we can't count on it according to you. There is a lot we don't know, but according to you there isn't anything we can know even if God tells it to us.


What God tells us gets interpreted by us; thus we have the ELCA and the LCMS and many other Christians who interpret God's words in different ways.

And when God says "up" and you interpret that to mean "down", or He says "wet" and you take it as "dry", the problem is with God.  Or so you say.


And when I have interpreted "up" to mean "down"? I never offer an interpretation that isn't supported by a lexicon or two (either Greek-English or Hebrew-English). I don't make up the definitions.


There are some words that can have nearly opposing definitions. One that comes to mind is λαμβάνω.


It has an active sense of "to take (with or without force)." It also has a passive sense of "to receive."


It makes quite a theological difference if we understand the passages about "receiving Christ" (where we are passive recipients) vs. "grabbing Christ" (where we are the instigators of possessing Christ). Both are legitimate ways of understanding that word.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 01:37:02 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #88 on: May 09, 2021, 01:31:27 PM »
We do not know in detail what God may do. How could we possibly know that? God has told us some things, but not everything. And we may have misunderstood a thing or two.
But what you wrote, that God hasn't told us everything or we may have misunderstood. You said that God may have changed His mind. That is different.


Have you not read the biblical passages where it says God changed his mind?


And if God never changes his mind, why should we bother to pray and ask God to do something? If God's mind is already made up and nothing can change it, prayer is useless.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: National Day of Prayer
« Reply #89 on: May 09, 2021, 01:39:09 PM »
We do not know in detail what God may do. How could we possibly know that? God has told us some things, but not everything. And we may have misunderstood a thing or two.
But what you wrote, that God hasn't told us everything or we may have misunderstood. You said that God may have changed His mind. That is different.


Have you not read the biblical passages where it says God changed his mind?


And if God never changes his mind, why should we bother to pray and ask God to do something? If God's mind is already made up and nothing can change it, prayer is useless.

Yup, right on cue.   ::)
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs