Author Topic: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment  (Read 2083 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2021, 03:37:18 PM »
Peter:
Those who disagree would say that a gay person couldn’t “feel safe” in a school in which traditionalists were authority figures.
Me:
I am not one of “those.“ I learned a long long time ago how to function in an environment where some people might be hostile to me, that’s why I can continue in this modest forum.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Dave Benke

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2021, 03:50:40 PM »
Thinking through the "public" school vs. parochial school and what constitutes "public" funding.  I put it in quotes because there's some muddy water there.  What happened here in the last few years of a very progressive administration was that the idea of prayer in publicly funded schools came up for a test.  In our context, the hugely politically influential group is the orthodox Jewish community.  They are just amazingly focused on what they want and how they want to get it.  So they wanted Universal Pre-K because the funding stream is good, and they can use existing staff in their centers.  But they want to have prayer and they want to keep their religious symbolism. 

When I was both local pastor and bishop, some of our sites were told to take the cross off the front of the building to qualify for Pre-K funding.  Which we argued was nuts.  So eventually they relented, but added that the crosses had to be taken out of the classrooms.  Which those schools did.  At the same time, nobody believed we could have prayer in a publicly funded school. 

But the rabbis worked through the system and came up with a twice a day five minute recess period, during which as appropriate prayers can be offered.  Who would have believed that - but it happened.  So we on the Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist spectrum have gone along for the ride. 

On the other hand, our contract with NYC does not allow for discrimination in hiring of any kind.  Very thorough.  It hasn't been an issue for lo these many years, but the anti-discrimination clauses are imbedded in the contract.  To the point, the funding is almost exclusively governmental.

I think about those who take some governmental funding along with tuition or other internal funding.  It's the taking of the funding off which the contracts are built.  Not sure what that line should be, but if you get a check per student per month, which we do, that would seem to be a pretty clear indicator light. 

The charter school movement is a way to get governmental funding, but in NY, at least, that excludes religious instruction and includes hiring practice mandates.  Again, the contract inclusions and exclusions are built off the funding.  Of course, that's the same in social service agencies.

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Dan Fienen

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2021, 04:38:37 PM »
Peter:
Those who disagree would say that a gay person couldn’t “feel safe” in a school in which traditionalists were authority figures.
Me:
I am not one of “those.“ I learned a long long time ago how to function in an environment where some people might be hostile to me, that’s why I can continue in this modest forum.
Good for you, Charles, paste a gold star in your copy book. Does your attitude and experience mean that Peter's concern is baseless and the concern of protected populations not feeling safe around those who disagree with them doesn’t happen and isn't ever used as a factor in the hiring, promotion, or retention of those who disagree with those protected classes?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 04:40:50 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2021, 05:11:08 PM »
Peter:
If a teacher is publicly opposed to same sex marriage, say, in social media, can the school fire him or her? Why or why not?
Me:
I would say no. In many cases, a persons private life has little to do with her ability to teach math or science or history.
Those who disagree would say that a gay person couldn’t “feel safe” in a school in which traditionalists were authority figures. “Feel safe” is a big phrase in the intersectionality/identity politics world. You impose your agenda by claiming to be victimized by anyone who disagrees.

I recall that I first heard the term "feel safe" used in the late 80s. I was representing a Native-American woman in a worker's compensation case, and she kept telling the judge that, because of comments by her supervisor, she didn't feel safe in her work environment. It must have been the first time the worker's comp judge heard that term too. At the end of the hearing, he asked her to explain what it meant to not "feel safe" in that situation.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2021, 05:12:55 PM »
During my years in the ministry, I have consistently interacted with female clergy in a respectful, polite,  and professional manner. In online discussions of WO I have never resorted to using offensive, belittling, or derogatory language. I still oppose WO and resent those who allege that those of who oppose WO willfully ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit or do so out of some phobia or other psychological pathology.


That said, I do not deny that some who oppose WO do resort to name calling and other truly offensive behavior. My determination to remain respectful and civil in disagreement does not prevent others, even some brother LCMS pastors, from failing in that.


Neither does Charles' not playing the "feel safe" prevent others from doing just that.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2021, 06:44:13 PM »
I am in favor of parochial schools being allowed to discriminate against gays and lesbians in their hiring. But if you use public funds in those schools, then I also support the government, that is my right to have something to say about how you conduct your business.

I assume this would include the use of guaranteed student loans and other government educational grants applied to education in some of these schools.  If so, would there be a religious criteria for the student to meet to qualify for such loans and use them where they wanted to go to school? I see complications here.


If the LCMS and other denominations who support private schools got all of their members to tithe, they would have enough funds to support their schools without government support (or interference). They wouldn't need to use Charles or my tax money.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2021, 06:47:11 PM »
Yup, the truth of human nature. Antinomians always end up back under the law.

As it applies to others, that is.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 06:51:13 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2021, 06:49:20 PM »
During my years in the ministry, I have consistently interacted with female clergy in a respectful, polite,  and professional manner. In online discussions of WO I have never resorted to using offensive, belittling, or derogatory language. I still oppose WO and resent those who allege that those of who oppose WO willfully ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit or do so out of some phobia or other psychological pathology.


That said, I do not deny that some who oppose WO do resort to name calling and other truly offensive behavior. My determination to remain respectful and civil in disagreement does not prevent others, even some brother LCMS pastors, from failing in that.


Neither does Charles' not playing the "feel safe" prevent others from doing just that.


I have seen a male minister at an ecumenical ministerial meeting who was sitting next to a female clergy, turn on his seat so that his back was nearly towards the woman. He never looked at her or interacted with her.


I was with a group of pastors, one was a female, a friend, we were talking informally with a guy who had given a speech at the event, he only faced the male pastors. Even when the female asked a question, he didn't face her, but the males. It was obvious enough that even I noticed it. My friend made a comment about that in the car as we returned home. We had thought that he was more of a progressive than he proved to be in that encounter.


There are ways of disrespecting female clergy that do not involve words.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2021, 06:50:44 PM »
Yup, the truth of human nature. Antinomians allways end up back under the law. For others, that is.


The Law is part of the Word of God. The Law is absolutely necessary for our life together. So what's wrong with ending up under the law when talking about how to live together peacefully in the world? What other option would you propose?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2021, 09:20:13 PM »
During my years in the ministry, I have consistently interacted with female clergy in a respectful, polite,  and professional manner. In online discussions of WO I have never resorted to using offensive, belittling, or derogatory language. I still oppose WO and resent those who allege that those of who oppose WO willfully ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit or do so out of some phobia or other psychological pathology.


That said, I do not deny that some who oppose WO do resort to name calling and other truly offensive behavior. My determination to remain respectful and civil in disagreement does not prevent others, even some brother LCMS pastors, from failing in that.


Neither does Charles' not playing the "feel safe" prevent others from doing just that.


I have seen a male minister at an ecumenical ministerial meeting who was sitting next to a female clergy, turn on his seat so that his back was nearly towards the woman. He never looked at her or interacted with her.


I was with a group of pastors, one was a female, a friend, we were talking informally with a guy who had given a speech at the event, he only faced the male pastors. Even when the female asked a question, he didn't face her, but the males. It was obvious enough that even I noticed it. My friend made a comment about that in the car as we returned home. We had thought that he was more of a progressive than he proved to be in that encounter.


There are ways of disrespecting female clergy that do not involve words.
There are indeed more ways to show disrespect than words.  That does not change my point, that just because I am not disrespectful doesn’t mean others are not. Just because Charles would not play the "feel safe" card in over reaction, doesn't mean others wouldn't.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2021, 09:32:41 PM »
Norman Nagel: "What do you call a women clergy. You call her 'Pastor'."

I've always followed that. That's her title. Show respect.

Don Kirchner

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Charles Austin

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2021, 12:20:47 AM »
Much of the “feels safe“ mania is simply a quest for attention and the enjoyment of being a victim. It’s some kind of psychological quirk that they had doctors probably have a name for.
On the other hand if you are a young black male and you are in a setting where you and your kind  are frequently disparaged and have indeed been the subject of violent assault, maybe having a place where you can feel safe and free from that craziness is not a bad idea.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Finish Bishop Elect Charged With Incitment
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2021, 09:43:04 AM »
Much of the “feels safe“ mania is simply a quest for attention and the enjoyment of being a victim. It’s some kind of psychological quirk that they had doctors probably have a name for.
On the other hand if you are a young black male and you are in a setting where you and your kind  are frequently disparaged and have indeed been the subject of violent assault, maybe having a place where you can feel safe and free from that craziness is not a bad idea.
Agreed. But I would add that there is a big difference between being disparaged and being violently assaulted. Everyone will be disparaged for all kinds of reasons (valid and invalid) in a diverse, multicultural setting, but nobody ought to be violently assaulted. In that sense, every space ought to be an enforced safe space from assault, and any particular person's safe space from disparagement should not be some officially designated place but simply the refuge of one's friends wherever they happen to gather.