Author Topic: Beyond Order  (Read 1679 times)

Weedon

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Beyond Order
« on: May 02, 2021, 05:51:02 PM »
Beyond Order is Dr. Jordan Petersonís new work. I know some folks really despise the man, but Iíve always found him to be insightful and interesting. This book is similar to his first, but offers 12 more rules, and of course, his read of the Bible always has a role in any of his formulations. Anyone else read/reading it? Any thoughts?

Mark Brown

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2021, 02:48:59 AM »
His first book I loved.  I've got the 2nd in the stack, have done the skim, but not the full read as of yet.  I'm sure I'll get there, but the skim told me "yep, it is still JP."  Which means three things to me primarily.
1) At a literal everyday level if someone were to try and follow JP's rules, their life would improve immensely.  What he is doing is telling you the natural law in a compelling way and the law is good and wise.
2) What gives him the space to preach the law is that is it almost bleedingly clear that he loves you.  There is some Dad you'd like to have to a fatherless generation in there.  There is some transgression in that blindingly obvious things like hierarchy which must not be named today lest it offend self esteem are not only named but lauded.  But the main attraction is love.
3) He is what I've called an honest pagan. If you were trying to be negative you could say he's building his own mystery religion.  But that negative attack fails, because we are naturally religious creatures who have only been given one obviously false official religion by our hierarchies - progressivism.  So, what JP does is offer an honest way in the world.  He is open to spiritual reality and willing to incorporate some insights into his mysteries.  He is Confucian in his willingness to say here is the path to the mandate of heaven, follow it, make yourself the junzi, the gentleman.  Yet he incorporates enough of the Taoist critique that life comes from conforming to the natural way, not from your personal mastery of it.  So, you do self-author, but there are massive limits to even the greatest abilities, and you are wise to submit to them.   

Weedon

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2021, 10:40:34 AM »
Mark, agree 110%. His approach through natural law (though I donít think he knows thatís whatís engaging) is what I think gives some depth even to his distorted approach to the Scripture. He at least takes them with utter seriousness and wants to allow the stories to shape him (because they shape the very world we inhabit in western civ, even if its mostly ruins at the moment).

Weedon

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2021, 09:28:18 PM »
Listening to the book at present, and just got to where he takes apart the ďismsĒ that treat individuals merely as members of predefined groups. Itís like heís been peeking in on the discussions in this Forum. TL:DR take away: Peterson and Peter are on the same page on the matter. :)

Charles Austin

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Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolinaís Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2021, 11:00:08 PM »
A person is more than simply what they write. The article in the Atlantic linked in the previous post provides insight into the author under discussion. A search of recent and older news will bring forward even more articles about Peterson.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolinaís Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Weedon

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2021, 10:24:14 AM »
Pr. Austin,

He talks quite openly about his horrific experience in the opening of the book. He lays it all bare. As always, the man is a believer in truth speaking.

RDPreus

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2021, 10:24:51 AM »
I read the Atlantic article until it required me to subscribe to continue reading.  It appears to me that the author of the article has her own personal axe to grind against the man.

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2021, 10:34:11 AM »
Knowing the slant of The Atlantic, I still thought the article had some worth, particularly when it talked about Peterson's health scare.  I found his words about overwhelming anxiety and complete loss of joy or happiness to be very reflective.  I sometimes find myself at a loss to answer the question, "What makes me happy?"  I do things, but don't find much enjoyment in them for a host of reasons.  A nice thing receives criticism because it wasn't done fast enough, in the right way, in the way someone else expected it to be done.  Doing something that brings some personal pleasure is regarded as selfish, and since I don't want to be selfish, I don't do those things. 

I'm glad that Jordan Peterson has regained his health, or is on the way to regaining his health.  I listen to clips of his podcast on youtube, as well as Joe Rogan and Bret Weinstein (Darkhorse Podcast).  All are very good, interesting, enlightening, thought-provoking.  So I guess listening to things might be something that makes me a little happy. 

Jeremy
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Mark Brown

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2021, 11:47:48 AM »
I read the Atlantic article until it required me to subscribe to continue reading.  It appears to me that the author of the article has her own personal axe to grind against the man.

The writer, Helen Lewis, is British which since JP is Canadian is within the Commonwealth.  Her book is "Difficult Women: A History of Feminism in 11 Fights". She is a former writer for The Guardian (the communist daily of London).  But she has apparently expressed an unacceptable level of skepticism about puberty blockers for kids and other trans stuff to have been fired from another post (The New Statesman).   The Atlantic picked her to write the takedown because the trans-skepticism gives her just enough in common with JP to serve as cover for going after him hammer and sickle.

Her conclusion which wishes that the hard analyst would look at himself must not have read or listened to the actual man who is nothing if not truthful about himself. 

prsauer

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2021, 06:40:58 PM »
Beyond Order is Dr. Jordan Petersonís new work. I know some folks really despise the man, but Iíve always found him to be insightful and interesting. This book is similar to his first, but offers 12 more rules, and of course, his read of the Bible always has a role in any of his formulations. Anyone else read/reading it? Any thoughts?

I have not read either of his books. I did, however, hear him give an interview recently. In it he spoke about the importance of taking mythology seriously. He cites Piaget's final stage of adolescence includes "Hero Worship" to explain the popularity of Harry Potter, the rise of the "superhero comic movies", and youth involvement in activist movements on both the right and left. Young men, in particular, are seeking out heroes.

My own experiences in teaching and pastoring young urban men resonate with his words. We do a very poor job of holding forth the adventurous nature of the Christian journey. In protestant churches we also do an equally poor job of remembering our heroes.  I am grateful to my colleague Bob Boehler at St. Mark's, Yonkers for his emphasis on the martyrologic of the church expressed both globally and locally.

As more and more of our cultural heroes are torn down where will our next generation find her heroes. Ought not the church have something to say about people who at one and the same time behave heroically even as their personal lives still betray the Adamic struggle?

peter_speckhard

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2021, 07:02:54 PM »
Young men will do anything to be a hero. Or at least to be needed as opposed to merely wanted. It's what they're hardwired to aspire to. Back when I was on facebook I wrote up a long article on this topic. The standard take that men want to be respected/looked up to while women want to be loved/cherished plays into this. This also helps explain why welfare programs are family killers. If a man can be a hero to his wife and children by working some laborious job and bringing home a frozen pizza, he'll do that menial job and he'll stay in his role as husband and father. If his family can get the pizza anyway regardless, then he is not a hero at home for providing one via his manual labor. Nor is he a hero out in society for doing some menial job that everyone looks down on. He feels like a shmuck for doing it. He probably won't keep doing the job where he is looked down upon and he may or may not stay with his family where he is not needed.

Where people need a man to do what only a man can do, a man will do it no matter the cost to himself. Where they don't need him or where what is needed can be done just as well by a woman, a man will do it as long as he feels like it but no longer.     

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2021, 01:27:42 AM »
Young men will do anything to be a hero. Or at least to be needed as opposed to merely wanted. It's what they're hardwired to aspire to. Back when I was on facebook I wrote up a long article on this topic. The standard take that men want to be respected/looked up to while women want to be loved/cherished plays into this. This also helps explain why welfare programs are family killers. If a man can be a hero to his wife and children by working some laborious job and bringing home a frozen pizza, he'll do that menial job and he'll stay in his role as husband and father. If his family can get the pizza anyway regardless, then he is not a hero at home for providing one via his manual labor. Nor is he a hero out in society for doing some menial job that everyone looks down on. He feels like a shmuck for doing it. He probably won't keep doing the job where he is looked down upon and he may or may not stay with his family where he is not needed.

Where people need a man to do what only a man can do, a man will do it no matter the cost to himself. Where they don't need him or where what is needed can be done just as well by a woman, a man will do it as long as he feels like it but no longer.     


Apparently you know few if any house husbands: husbands who choose to stay at home and look after the children (if there are any) and the household duties while the wife works her professional job that provides enough income for the two of them. Those that I've met seemed quite happy in their non-heroic roles. When we qualified for welfare because of low pay, I had no problems accepting it.


One of the benefits of pastoral ministry is that I was often free during the day to deal with our children and their activities at school while my wife worked. There were times I was the only male parent at those functions.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2021, 08:46:55 AM »
Peter writes:
Young men will do anything to be a hero. Or at least to be needed as opposed to merely wanted. It's what they're hardwired to aspire to.
I comment:
Do you not think that young women have aspirations? To "be" something? To accomplish something? To use their interests and skills and gifts? Or at least to be valued and needed (whether in family or society)? And I'm not sure either gender is "hardwired" to any specific "thing."

Peter writes:
Back when I was on facebook I wrote up a long article on this topic. The standard take that men want to be respected/looked up to while women want to be loved/cherished plays into this.
I comment:
Maybe that "take" isn't so "standard" any more.

Peter:
This also helps explain why welfare programs are family killers. If a man can be a hero to his wife and children by working some laborious job and bringing home a frozen pizza, he'll do that menial job and he'll stay in his role as husband and father.
Me:
Statistics suggest otherwise.

Peter:
If his family can get the pizza anyway regardless, then he is not a hero at home for providing one via his manual labor. Nor is he a hero out in society for doing some menial job that everyone looks down on. He feels like a shmuck for doing it. He probably won't keep doing the job where he is looked down upon and he may or may not stay with his family where he is not needed.
Me:
Through high school and college, I worked in several jobs we might consider "menial." I was a low-level worker in a meat-packing house. I loaded furnaces in a foundry. I sold shoes for a commission, not an hourly wage. For the "regular" people in those jobs, they were jobs, period. Go to work. Do the work. Get paid. Take care of your family. Not everyone needs to be a "hero," and if disaster hits, there is nothing ignoble about taking help, even from (OMG! NO!) the government.

Peter:
Where people need a man to do what only a man can do, a man will do it no matter the cost to himself.
Me:
And just what is it that "only a man can do"? Father children, I suppose. Otherwise...

Peter:
Where they don't need him or where what is needed can be done just as well by a woman, a man will do it as long as he feels like it but no longer.
Me:
Is the male portion of the human race really so stupid?
"Oh, a woman can do this job just as well as I can, so I'm wondering why I do it."
"They don't need me any more, so I'll quit working."
Really?
Human dignity and a sense of self comes from how we do things, our world-view as we move through the world, our confidence that we are valuable as people, not just for what we do or what our specific gender role might be.  I have written about the difficulty of adjusting to the fact that after 50+ years, I am not "needed" to preach and preside and teach. I still feel some of that, but life moves on, life changes, and my interest in it does not depend upon what people need me to do or how I valued what I used to do.
A former boss - the classic workaholic - retired one January, and early in April came down to breakfast and dropped dead on the kitchen floor. He had no life, no meaning in life outside his work.
My mother, who had a long career as executive secretary and manager of our restaurant, lived into her 92nd year, noted once that all her friends had passed, kids were grown and gone, and she required nursing home care. But she enjoyed reading, music, television (but had terrible taste in shows), a shot of whiskey and the two cigarettes they allowed her each day. She did not measure or compare anything in her final three years against the previous 88.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolinaís Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Beyond Order
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2021, 09:39:27 AM »
Peter writes:
Young men will do anything to be a hero. Or at least to be needed as opposed to merely wanted. It's what they're hardwired to aspire to.
I comment:
Do you not think that young women have aspirations? To "be" something? To accomplish something? To use their interests and skills and gifts? Or at least to be valued and needed (whether in family or society)? And I'm not sure either gender is "hardwired" to any specific "thing."

Peter writes:
Back when I was on facebook I wrote up a long article on this topic. The standard take that men want to be respected/looked up to while women want to be loved/cherished plays into this.
I comment:
Maybe that "take" isn't so "standard" any more.

Peter:
This also helps explain why welfare programs are family killers. If a man can be a hero to his wife and children by working some laborious job and bringing home a frozen pizza, he'll do that menial job and he'll stay in his role as husband and father.
Me:
Statistics suggest otherwise.

Peter:
If his family can get the pizza anyway regardless, then he is not a hero at home for providing one via his manual labor. Nor is he a hero out in society for doing some menial job that everyone looks down on. He feels like a shmuck for doing it. He probably won't keep doing the job where he is looked down upon and he may or may not stay with his family where he is not needed.
Me:
Through high school and college, I worked in several jobs we might consider "menial." I was a low-level worker in a meat-packing house. I loaded furnaces in a foundry. I sold shoes for a commission, not an hourly wage. For the "regular" people in those jobs, they were jobs, period. Go to work. Do the work. Get paid. Take care of your family. Not everyone needs to be a "hero," and if disaster hits, there is nothing ignoble about taking help, even from (OMG! NO!) the government.

Peter:
Where people need a man to do what only a man can do, a man will do it no matter the cost to himself.
Me:
And just what is it that "only a man can do"? Father children, I suppose. Otherwise...

Peter:
Where they don't need him or where what is needed can be done just as well by a woman, a man will do it as long as he feels like it but no longer.
Me:
Is the male portion of the human race really so stupid?
"Oh, a woman can do this job just as well as I can, so I'm wondering why I do it."
"They don't need me any more, so I'll quit working."
Really?
Human dignity and a sense of self comes from how we do things, our world-view as we move through the world, our confidence that we are valuable as people, not just for what we do or what our specific gender role might be.  I have written about the difficulty of adjusting to the fact that after 50+ years, I am not "needed" to preach and preside and teach. I still feel some of that, but life moves on, life changes, and my interest in it does not depend upon what people need me to do or how I valued what I used to do.
A former boss - the classic workaholic - retired one January, and early in April came down to breakfast and dropped dead on the kitchen floor. He had no life, no meaning in life outside his work.
My mother, who had a long career as executive secretary and manager of our restaurant, lived into her 92nd year, noted once that all her friends had passed, kids were grown and gone, and she required nursing home care. But she enjoyed reading, music, television (but had terrible taste in shows), a shot of whiskey and the two cigarettes they allowed her each day. She did not measure or compare anything in her final three years against the previous 88.
Charles, it is as though you cannot read. The word "if" does not mean "because." And where do you see me saying women don't have aspirations? You simply live in a world in which a main goal to treat the differences between the sexes as purely culturally conditioned and as a negative to be overcome. The idea that men and women can be different without recognition of those differences being an insult to either sex just doesn't make sense to you. Fine. Write a post explaining your view of heros and manhood, the subtopic introduced by Paul Sauer. You don't need to dissect men with irrelevant and ill-informed nitpicking.

In practically every culture, part of becoming a man is distinguishing yourself from women. Our culture doesn't encourage that or allow that, so we end up with toxic masculinity or else neutered people.