Author Topic: Chauvin Trial and verdict  (Read 9163 times)

David Garner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 7357
    • View Profile
    • For He is Good and Loves Mankind
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2021, 03:57:45 PM »
David or Don, I have a question that I think you can answer...

Sentencing for Derek Chauvin will take place sometime in June.  Where is Mr. Chauvin in the meantime?  Does he remain in custody of the sheriff's department?  Is he allowed to be at home until sentencing?  Is this one of those situations where Mr. So and So is sentenced to X years in prison minus time already served.  If he is in custody of the sheriff's department until the time of his sentencing, would this be considered the time already served?

Thanks.

Jeremy

He was remanded to the custody of the state at the time of the verdict yesterday.  He will receive time served for the months between now and his sentencing, and my best guess is he will be in a county facility until he is sentenced, at which point they will move him to a state prison.

FOX News reports:

ďThe Minnesota Department of Corrections said Tuesday night that Chauvin was at the state's maximum-security prison in Oak Park Heights, due to an arrangement with the county sheriff and the Department of Corrections. That's the same prison where Chauvin was moved after his arrest for security reasons.Ē

I didnít consider what a security risk he is. That makes sense.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11526
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2021, 04:06:38 PM »
David or Don, I have a question that I think you can answer...

Sentencing for Derek Chauvin will take place sometime in June.  Where is Mr. Chauvin in the meantime?  Does he remain in custody of the sheriff's department?  Is he allowed to be at home until sentencing?  Is this one of those situations where Mr. So and So is sentenced to X years in prison minus time already served.  If he is in custody of the sheriff's department until the time of his sentencing, would this be considered the time already served?

Thanks.

Jeremy

He was remanded to the custody of the state at the time of the verdict yesterday.  He will receive time served for the months between now and his sentencing, and my best guess is he will be in a county facility until he is sentenced, at which point they will move him to a state prison.

FOX News reports:

ďThe Minnesota Department of Corrections said Tuesday night that Chauvin was at the state's maximum-security prison in Oak Park Heights, due to an arrangement with the county sheriff and the Department of Corrections. That's the same prison where Chauvin was moved after his arrest for security reasons.Ē

I didnít consider what a security risk he is. That makes sense.

Yeah, I'd forgotten that he was held in max-security prior to trial as  well.

A colleague, a criminal defense lawyer, wryly quipped that if Chauvin had been found not guilty, the bounty on him on the street would have been about $100,000. Now, going to prison, the bounty will be a carton of cigarettes.   :(
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 04:18:27 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12448
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2021, 04:23:31 PM »
Peter writes:
The big disconnect between the "sides" of this case seems to divide those who see it in individual terms and those who see it in larger scale, group terms.
I comment:
Then you aren't listening to the members of the Floyd family and his friends. He is the individual. The fact that others - such as you - also see it as "identity politics" is quite a different matter.

Peter:
The former tend to have some measure of sympathy for the officer. They also tend to see Floyd as at least partly to blame for his condition, having filled his own lungs with a lethal dose of fentanyl and resisted arrest. The latter tend to have no sympathy for the defendant and to see Floyd as purely an innocent victim.
Me:
Are you suggesting that it's ok to kneel on a physically impaired person? No one is totally "innocent," but at the time that deadly force was applied to someone only suspected of a relatively minor offense. Your remark comes close to the comments excusing rape or attempted rape because a woman dressed a certain way.

Peter:
They seem to view the case in terms of the police generally vs. the African-American community generally rather than an individual officer and an individual victim. The trial seemingly wasn't about Chauvin and Floyd but about the historic sociological problems the two men represent.
Me:
Didn't watch much of the trial, did you?

Peter:
Had the exact same thing happened to a white victim, we probably wouldn't even be aware of the case.
Me:
As has been shown time again, something like that would probably never happen to a white person.

Peter:
I reject group identity politics and critical race theory, so I find myself sympathizing with a plight of the defendant as well as the victim in different ways. I don't think Chauvin acted with malice or intent to kill, nor do I think it was a racially motivated event.
Me:
Read the charges, read the law. With some of the charges "acting with malice or intent to kill" or motivated by race is not necessary. But the case upheld in court indicates that the officer's intent was indeed malicious.

Peter:
While he no doubt handled it terribly, a charge of excessive use of force and/or police misconduct along with involuntary manslaughter would seem to have fit what happened. Maybe I'm wrong and Chauvin arrived on the scene wanting Floyd dead. Or maybe he knew he was killing him and didn't care. But I doubt it.
Me:
You doubt it because you reject the existence of systematic racism, especially in law enforcement, present in our society. The prosecution made the case that he didn't care what was happening to the man under his knee.

Peter:
I think he is being painted as a monster because of the confluence of the horrible optics of the video fitting the perfectly with a sociological agenda.
Me:
Whew. At least you agree that it looked bad. Chauvin was convicted of causing Floyd's death "while committing or attempting to commit a related felony, in this case third-degree assault." That's sometimes called "felony murder."
And the officer was convicted of third-degree murder, where the jury believed the evidence showed him causing death during an act that was "eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life."
The officer was a trained, veteran policeman who supposedly knew something about the use of force, even the felonious used of force and what constituted murder and lack of "regard for human life."
So in this incident, even if he had recently petted a puppy or helped an old lady across the street, the officer was indeed a monster.
We disagree at the basic level of assumptions. "More equitable justice" was neither plaintiff nor defendant here. Your whole take on it has been that he was clearly guilty and the only question was whether the system was too racist to convict him. In a way, this parallels the debate of "death from Covid" vs. "death with Covid." Floyd had Covid at the time. He died with it, not from it, at least not for the most part. He also had an officer kneeling on him (not cutting off his windpipe) at the time. He died with that, too, not from it, at least not for the most part. The experts refused to answer the question of whether Floyd would have died anyone without any police action taken on the grounds that they don't deal in what-ifs. But they did admit that if they'd found Floyd later, the lack of any signs of injury in his neck/throat coupled with the lethal level of fentanyl in his lungs would have made it a fairly straightforward finding of overdose as the cause of death. As it is, the adrenaline that comes from resisting arrest coupled with his heart condition and massive amounts of drugs in his system likely would have killed him even if Chauvin had left him in the back seat of the car. I can't prove it, but I can say that there is at least reasonable doubt that Chauvin killed Floyd.

It comes far too easily to you to think of people as depraved monsters. I don't know Chauvin or much about him, but I very much doubt he is a monster of depraved heart. You and the jury disagree. He'll likely be in jail a long time. I think far lesser charges would have better reflected the real crime of misconduct/brutality.

Regarding the sentence in bold print:
a) the jury determined otherwise
b) In the circle of friends, colleagues, relatives and acquaintances virtual and real in which I travel, you are the only person I know to date who holds the opinion that there is "reasonable doubt that Chauvin killed Floyd." 

Dave Benke

mariemeyer

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2021, 04:42:41 PM »
I would encourage everyone who posts on the ALPB Forum to follow up on Pr. John Hannah's reference to Esau McCaulley's op ed in today's New York Times.  Professor Esau McCaulley  is a black assistant professor of the New Testament at Wheaton College. In case anyone failed to follow up on John Hannah's post, I have repeated it because  I am deeply troubled by posts that persist in denying the systemic racism that exists in our nation.  IMO, they reflect an intentional inability to walk in the shoes of fellow citizens who are black or brown.   

Please, take time to read the article to which John Hannah referred.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/20/opinion/derek-chauvin-verdict-floyd.html

I offer a brief quote, " I told my son the story of Adam Toledo's death as I drove him to baseball practice. It slipped from my lips unexpectedly. The Gospel singer Kirk Franklin was playing in the background, and we sat in silence as the choir sang the  the glories of God. In that moment, we were just not father and son but a Black boy and a Black man trying to make some sense of the task of living that stretched out before  us...

"When I could not wait any longer, I asked him, 'What are you thinking?'  He told me sounding somber and somewhat older, 'I want to do some good in the world, to make it better.'  That's it, I thought. That pain never breaks us, We push forward.

 "At some point,  I will sit down with my son and tell him that justice has been served in the Chauvin trial. But I am not sure the playfulness in his voice will immediately return. He has experienced something that has changed him.

"The point eventually comes for all black boys and girls - the moment when the monster reveals itself and the shape of the fight becomes clear. I pray the resolve he displayed during our car ride will remain."

Marie Meyer



peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17522
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2021, 04:44:11 PM »
As for a) really? I hadnít heard.

Concerning b) The facts were presented that the kneeling didnít cut off Floydís breathing or damage his neck or throat, that he already said he couldnít breathe even when sitting in the car, that his Fentanyl level would be considered lethal in many cases, and there were other drugs to complicate matters, that he had a serious heart condition, and was involved in an adrenaline producing incident. I think a reasonable person might conclude he didnít die because of being knelt on for so long. Mind you, Iím not saying he didnít die because of that. Iím just saying a reasonable person could doubt that Chauvin killed him. And yes, Iím aware the jury disagreed. But there were medical experts who were asked as much, and they refused to speculate. So it isnít as though the idea is so outlandish that no lawyer thought to pursue it.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17522
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2021, 04:49:07 PM »
A given device only gets a handful of NYT articles per month without registering. I often canít read linked articles. Iím not sure how the quote presented speaks to the facts of the case. Perhaps a good definition of systemic racism would help.

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4607
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2021, 05:15:56 PM »
Systemic racism, as I am seeing it defined, contends that there are pervasive policies and practices throughout the entire society that support and encourage an unfair advantage to some people and unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race. The premise underlying this is that we are said to be a county founded as a racist society that has only continued this practice into modern times. 

These racist based practices are said to be part of the entire structure of the society:economic, judicial, educational, healthcare, religious institutions, etc.

Any disparity between races, in this case Black and White, is primarily explained as a result of racially influenced institutions and organizations.  Other conditions may factor in, but the disparities are primary race-based and intrinsic to the very structure of our society on multiple levels. 

Would this seem to be a fair place to start?  Or am I characterizing the concept in a wrong way?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17522
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2021, 05:49:57 PM »
Systemic racism, as I am seeing it defined, contends that there are pervasive policies and practices throughout the entire society that support and encourage an unfair advantage to some people and unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race. The premise underlying this is that we are said to be a county founded as a racist society that has only continued this practice into modern times. 

These racist based practices are said to be part of the entire structure of the society:economic, judicial, educational, healthcare, religious institutions, etc.

Any disparity between races, in this case Black and White, is primarily explained as a result of racially influenced institutions and organizations.  Other conditions may factor in, but the disparities are primary race-based and intrinsic to the very structure of our society on multiple levels. 

Would this seem to be a fair place to start?  Or am I characterizing the concept in a wrong way?
Thatís more or less how Iíve seen it defined. The problem is how the theory is even testable. Mostly Iíve seen the question settled by claiming it isnít a theory but a fact, and to call it a theory is to be complicit in racism. Already in this thread weíve seen how questioning whether or not other factors primarily caused Floydís death leads a certain kind of mind to think ďwhite nationalismĒ or to fret that the alpb forum includes such thoughts. Systemic racism must be accepted as a matter of faith in order for the discussion to proceed. Doubting Thomases are not shown the hands and side, theyíre shown the door.

Weedon

  • Guest
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2021, 05:54:23 PM »
On systemic racism, let me again recommend reading Isabel Wilkersonís book Caste. As I said before, I was irritated with what seemed the assumptions at the beginning, but the further in the book I went, the more aghast I grew at what she presented. I think itís one of the most important books Iíve read in the last ten years. I think it helped this southerner see something that was right before his eyes his whole life, and which I simply did not realize was there.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 05:57:27 PM by Weedon »

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4607
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2021, 06:55:17 PM »
On systemic racism, let me again recommend reading Isabel Wilkersonís book Caste. As I said before, I was irritated with what seemed the assumptions at the beginning, but the further in the book I went, the more aghast I grew at what she presented. I think itís one of the most important books Iíve read in the last ten years. I think it helped this southerner see something that was right before his eyes his whole life, and which I simply did not realize was there.

How has it changed the way you deal with the issue of race, especially in the church (since that is a primary area of work and life for most of us here)? Has it had an impact not only in what you now realize and understand, but in the way you approach the various 'systems' of society?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Weedon

  • Guest
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2021, 07:21:57 PM »
Don, it was more personal than ecclesial. It helped me stop excusing the inexcusable stance of my family in pretending they could own people and sell them; and in pretending the big blow up was about statesí rights and not, as Matt Stanek said so bluntly a couple months back, ďthe statesí right to enslave fellow human beings.Ē It above all stopped me dead in my tracks from thinking I KNEW the truth about what my black sisters and brothers have been through and continue to experience, and instead, called me to LISTEN. I emailed Vic Belton to ask him if he had anything to say that I needed to hear, because I was terrified, after I finished her book, that Iíd not honestly really listened before. As for our Church, right now, weíre mostly still an all caucasian church. There are some adopted children of Chinese origin; a family with hispanic heritage. But I live in a town where we have several black families, or mixed race families. It opened my eyes to the importance of reaching out to them, asking them how THEY are doing in these troubled times, and listening to their experience. Weedon has always been too quick to run his mouth (and as you all know, his fingers). It was time to remember: two ears, one mouth. Quick to listen, slow to speak. I was horrified by the stories Isabel told, and particularly her own personal accounts, which she mostly saves up to the end. But I needed to hear them. And to sit with them. To think about them, and say nothing. Other than: Kyrie, eleison. That, and, Lord, help me to honor each and every person whom You have made in Your own image, of one blood, and whom Your Son has redeemed with HIS precious blood.

P.S. And it made me wish like anything that I could go back and ask my family some questions that need answering. But theyíre all dead now. Was there a lynching tree in our hometown? Did we have any ancestors who took those awful pictures and made POSTCARDS of them?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 07:27:09 PM by Weedon »

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13579
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2021, 08:32:25 PM »
Thank you, Pastor Weedon, for your words about Isabelle Wilkerson's book. Caste opened the eyes of many people who have been beneficiaries of racism and the heritage of slavery, but have denied having anything to do with racism today. And it's not just race, but the enshrined caste system in our land; perhaps not as deep and structured as in India, but present nonetheless.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Michael Slusser

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5336
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2021, 08:40:17 PM »
Peter Speckhard recently wrote in response to Pr. Engebretson's effort to sum up systemic racism
Quote
Thatís more or less how Iíve seen it defined. The problem is how the theory is even testable.
60 years ago it was tested by John Howard Griffin, who wrote Black Like Me. He colored his skin dark and went through the Jim Crow South, discovering by personal experience that what Engebretson summed up as
Quote
Systemic racism, as I am seeing it defined, contends that there are pervasive policies and practices throughout the entire society that support and encourage an unfair advantage to some people and unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race. The premise underlying this is that we are said to be a county founded as a racist society that has only continued this practice into modern times.

These racist based practices are said to be part of the entire structure of the society: economic, judicial, educational, healthcare, religious institutions, etc.
was a factual description of the situation faced by colored people in America.
     I am fortunate to have read Black Like Me in the 60s. It saved me from a lot of my naivety and self-righteousness.
Quote
John Howard Griffin had embarked on a journey unlike any other. Many black authors had written about the hardship of living in the Jim Crow South. A few white writers had argued for integration. But Griffin, a novelist of extraordinary empathy rooted in his Catholic faith, had devised a daring experiment. To comprehend the lives of black people, he had darkened his skin to become black. As the civil rights movement tested various forms of civil disobedience, Griffin began a human odyssey through the South, from New Orleans to Atlanta. . . .
     ďBlack Like Me disabused the idea that minorities were acting out of paranoia,Ē says Gerald Early, a black scholar at Washington University and editor of Lure and Loathing: Essays on Race, Identity, and the Ambivalence of Assimilation. ďThere was this idea that black people said certain things about racism, and one rather expected them to say these things. Griffin revealed that what they were saying was true. It took someone from outside coming in to do that. And what he went through gave the book a remarkable sincerity.Ē
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/black-like-me-50-years-later-74543463/

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17522
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2021, 08:43:30 PM »
Peter Speckhard recently wrote in response to Pr. Engebretson's effort to sum up systemic racism
Quote
Thatís more or less how Iíve seen it defined. The problem is how the theory is even testable.
60 years ago it was tested by John Howard Griffin, who wrote Black Like Me. He colored his skin dark and went through the Jim Crow South, discovering by personal experience that what Engebretson summed up as
Quote
Systemic racism, as I am seeing it defined, contends that there are pervasive policies and practices throughout the entire society that support and encourage an unfair advantage to some people and unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race. The premise underlying this is that we are said to be a county founded as a racist society that has only continued this practice into modern times.

These racist based practices are said to be part of the entire structure of the society: economic, judicial, educational, healthcare, religious institutions, etc.
was a factual description of the situation faced by colored people in America.
     I am fortunate to have read Black Like Me in the 60s. It saved me from a lot of my naivety and self-righteousness.
Quote
John Howard Griffin had embarked on a journey unlike any other. Many black authors had written about the hardship of living in the Jim Crow South. A few white writers had argued for integration. But Griffin, a novelist of extraordinary empathy rooted in his Catholic faith, had devised a daring experiment. To comprehend the lives of black people, he had darkened his skin to become black. As the civil rights movement tested various forms of civil disobedience, Griffin began a human odyssey through the South, from New Orleans to Atlanta. . . .
     ďBlack Like Me disabused the idea that minorities were acting out of paranoia,Ē says Gerald Early, a black scholar at Washington University and editor of Lure and Loathing: Essays on Race, Identity, and the Ambivalence of Assimilation. ďThere was this idea that black people said certain things about racism, and one rather expected them to say these things. Griffin revealed that what they were saying was true. It took someone from outside coming in to do that. And what he went through gave the book a remarkable sincerity.Ē
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/black-like-me-50-years-later-74543463/

Peace,
Michael
You honestly think life for black people in Minnesota today is comparable to life for people in the Jim Crow South of the 1950ís? Or is that a ridiculous comparison?

J. Thomas Shelley

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4000
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2021, 08:43:36 PM »
How far back through our pedigrees do we travel for uncovering inherited guilt and accumulating ancestral sin?

An essay I published here six years ago is still highly relevant, perhaps more relevant now than before:

"Paid in Full"

Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015