Author Topic: Chauvin Trial and verdict  (Read 9034 times)

John_Hannah

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Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #135 on: May 03, 2021, 02:00:19 PM »
     Some of the military here should correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when US forces are in another country under Rules of Engagement, they often are immune from prosecution for criminal acts against civilians in civilian courts. I've read that about Okinawa; and when President Obama pulled US troops from Iraq, it was at least partly because Iraq wanted to be able to try soldiers in Iraqi courts for crimes committed against civilians and we wouldn't waive immunity.

Peace,
Michael

You are thinking of the "Status of Forces Agreement" rather than "Rules of Engagement." For that the agreement with every nation is different.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Michael Slusser

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Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2021, 02:18:36 PM »
     Some of the military here should correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when US forces are in another country under Rules of Engagement, they often are immune from prosecution for criminal acts against civilians in civilian courts. I've read that about Okinawa; and when President Obama pulled US troops from Iraq, it was at least partly because Iraq wanted to be able to try soldiers in Iraqi courts for crimes committed against civilians and we wouldn't waive immunity.

Peace,
Michael

You are thinking of the "Status of Forces Agreement" rather than "Rules of Engagement." For that the agreement with every nation is different.

Peace, JOHN
Thank you, John. Very helpful.
Fr. Michael Slusser
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #137 on: May 03, 2021, 02:55:05 PM »
Well, heck, let’s call it a report of an opinion. Problem solved, you’re welcome.
Anyway, in a flash of inspiration last night, I think I came up with a solution. Since everybody else is doing it, let’s allow the police to work from home.
If you have find yourself in physical danger and in need of an officer, please accept my apologies in advance for the amount of schadenfreude you will notice drifting toward from the southeast. You're like the pathetic celebrities and politicians who walk with their security details to their big speech calling for defunding the police.


For heaven sake’s, Peter, can you really be so humorless! It was a joke.
You have never heard me say anything positive here about “defunding“ the police. I think I have said here  that it is an unfortunate phrase, and that it should not be taken to the extreme.



Observation about humor. Is it in these enlightened times acceptable in polite (i.e. liberal/progressive) society to mock, denigrate, or poke fun at POC (People of Color), Blacks, Hispanics, Asiatics, or Jews? (Well maybe Jews if you're a Democrat, you can just pass it off as anti-Israeli.) If called on it does it suffice to pass it off as a joke and the complainer as humorless? There making it a joke makes it all better and if someone takes offense, it is their fault for having no sense of humor, right? So suggesting that the police should just stay home is not anti-police since you call it a joke?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #138 on: May 03, 2021, 03:11:58 PM »
For heaven sake’s, Peter, can you really be so humorless! It was a joke.
You have never heard me say anything positive here about “defunding“ the police. I think I have said here  that it is an unfortunate phrase, and that it should not be taken to the extreme.
I know it was a joke. Mine was a retort to a joke. It apparently hit too close to home.

It isn't an unfortunate phrase that shouldn't be taken to an extreme, it is an accurate description of a stupid idea that shouldn't even be taken seriously, much less extremely so.

Charles Austin

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Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #139 on: May 03, 2021, 05:20:42 PM »
How about “partially defund the police”? Take some of the money used to turn police units into combat units and swat teams and put it towards the kind of community health measures, social services and aids to law-enforcement that don’t involve military power.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #140 on: May 03, 2021, 05:42:26 PM »
How about “partially defund the police”? Take some of the money used to turn police units into combat units and swat teams and put it towards the kind of community health measures, social services and aids to law-enforcement that don’t involve military power.
I’d agree with that in general but I don’t think it would make any difference in any of the high profile cases people are protesting. Most of them have been routine calls or stops involving officers with regular sidearms. No SWAT teams, combat arms, and what have you. I know someone who is on a local police force SWAT team and I don’t think it is ever used except in standoff situations potentially involving hostages or on busts of suspects known to be armed and dangerous. They don’t just roam around the streets or respond to 911 calls with SWAT teams or combat arms.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 07:21:39 PM by peter_speckhard »

Dan Fienen

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Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #141 on: May 03, 2021, 05:47:39 PM »
How about “partially defund the police”? Take some of the money used to turn police units into combat units and swat teams and put it towards the kind of community health measures, social services and aids to law-enforcement that don’t involve military power.
May not be a bad idea. An increase in the flexibility of response by police departments and adding individuals with specialized training for some of the situations encountered by police is not a bad idea. In the small Nebraska city where I pastored some years ago, the local police department adopted the policy of responding to domestic disturbance calls by first arriving on the scene and making sure that violence wasn't breaking out and then calling in a volunteer police chaplain to continue the response.


However, social workers or mental health professionals may not always be able to take care of the situation. For example, the 1997 North Hollywood band robbery shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout needed advanced fire power. The police ended up getting some guns from a local gun shop to manage the situation.


One problem with using slogans like "Defund the Police" when you don't really mean it is that people likely will take you at your word.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

David Garner

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Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #142 on: May 03, 2021, 07:18:17 PM »
How about “partially defund the police”? Take some of the money used to turn police units into combat units and swat teams and put it towards the kind of community health measures, social services and aids to law-enforcement that don’t involve military power.
May not be a bad idea. An increase in the flexibility of response by police departments and adding individuals with specialized training for some of the situations encountered by police is not a bad idea. In the small Nebraska city where I pastored some years ago, the local police department adopted the policy of responding to domestic disturbance calls by first arriving on the scene and making sure that violence wasn't breaking out and then calling in a volunteer police chaplain to continue the response.


However, social workers or mental health professionals may not always be able to take care of the situation. For example, the 1997 North Hollywood band robbery shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout needed advanced fire power. The police ended up getting some guns from a local gun shop to manage the situation.


One problem with using slogans like "Defund the Police" when you don't really mean it is that people likely will take you at your word.

While it is true that the LAPD had to retrieve weapons from a local gun shop, something that often goes untold (and best I can tell, is not included in the wiki link, though it is hinted at where it discusses the gunman dying of blood loss from "multiple gunshots to the legs") is the fact that the SWAT team's tactics, not their equipment, saved the day.  Knowing that a bullet when it strikes a hard object will ricochet away from the hard object 8 to 10 inches or so and remain at that flight until gravity takes over, the SWAT officers shot at the pavement in front of the vehicle the robbers were hiding behind.  This, ultimately, stopped the fight.

Jeff Cooper was once quoted as saying "this is a problem that could have been solved by a well trained 12 year old and two shots from a thirty-thirty."  He was refuting the idea that the LAPD needed .45 ACP handguns like the SWAT officers had.  While I think that's simplistic, the reality is body armor is designed to stop handgun bullets, so shooting handguns at body armor is not likely to have the desired effect, so Cooper was right in that assessment -- no handgun round was going to stop them if the officers shot center mass.  The SWAT officers had rifles, of course, but it was handgun fire under the vehicle that stopped them.  Mostly because the bad guys did not have body armor on their legs.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Richard Johnson

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Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #143 on: May 04, 2021, 06:40:18 AM »
I know someone who is on a local police force SWAT team and I don’t think it is ever used except in standoff situations potentially involving hostages or on busts of suspects known to be armed and dangerous. They don’t just roam around the streets or respond to 911 calls with SWAT teams or combat arms.

Can't resist telling the story. My son was in middle school. His soccer (or whatever) practice was cancelled, and he walked down to church to get a ride home, but I'd already left. He found an open window and climbed in to call me to come get him; I told him to start walking down town and I'd meet him there. While he was there, someone in the apartments next door had seen him climb in and called the church. He answered, and told them it was OK, then left to meet me. When I came back at 7 for council, all the council members were gathered in a knot in one corner of the parking lot, and the police had the building surrounded. I asked what was going on. "Apparently there's an intruder in the church, and the police SWAT team is looking for him." I cautiously approached the officer in charge, who warned me to stay back. I explained who I was and what I thought had happened, and I apologized profusely. "Oh, don't worry about it," he said, "we don't get a lot of practice, so this was a good exercise."

As for the police, I actually think funding should be significantly increased so that they can pay higher salaries and provide better training.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS