Author Topic: Chauvin Trial and verdict  (Read 9056 times)

Coach-Rev

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 477
  • Rev. Jeff Cottingham, STS
    • View Profile
    • Trinity Lutheran Church
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2021, 04:16:52 PM »
Jeff simply notes that this thread ran its course before it even started, and has slipped into the usual political divisiveness that still dominates this forum.  Can we mercifully put it out of its' misery now?
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln

blog:  http://coach-rev.blogspot.com/
photography:  https://jeffcottingham.smugmug.com/

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11523
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2021, 04:40:45 PM »
I said people were making Chauvin out to be a monster. Charles said Chauvin was a monster. I said that, unlike Charles, I did not think Chauvin was a monster. You mistakenly thought I was saying the jury had convicted him of being a monster, which they hadn’t, so you “corrected” a mistake that hadn’t been made.

What you actually wrote:

It comes far too easily to you to think of people as depraved monsters. I don't know Chauvin or much about him, but I very much doubt he is a monster of depraved heart. You and the jury disagree. He'll likely be in jail a long time. I think far lesser charges would have better reflected the real crime of misconduct/brutality.

You used the term "monster of depraved heart," i.e, modifying "monster" with "depraved heart," thereby finding an equivalence if not intensifying the term "monster." Not just a  monster, but a monster of depraved heart, thereby combining the two erroneously. You also suggested that the jury disagreed with you and found that Chauvin was a "monster of depraved heart." I responded:

You also manifest a misunderstanding of the legal definition of "depraved heart." It does not require showing that the defendant is a monster. So, the jury did not find that Chauvin is "a monster of depraved heart."

Now,

Please point out where "upstream I* seemed to think that there was no possible doubt about it, and [was] rather intemperate in [my] judgments." It seemed to me that I focused on the fact that the jurors who heard ALL of the evidence (and I did not), heard all the jury instructions including the definition and elements of the charges (I did not), and deliberated for nearly ten hours (I did not) gave the case the respect it deserved, arrived at the guilty verdict on all charges, and that, therefore, justice was done.

Thank you.

*If I put brackets around it, it italicizes the remainder and removes the "I."   :)

« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 04:50:49 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Tom Eckstein

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
  • Tom Eckstein
    • View Profile
    • Concordia Lutheran Church, Jamestown, ND
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2021, 05:13:55 PM »
Peter, each of your comments proves again and again how clueless you are about this particular problem in our land and this discussion. Just because racism is not supported by  “law“ does not mean it is not systemic in our society.
I ask again, do you ignore the statistics about how minorities are treated by our justice system?
Do you ignore the statistics about police interaction with minorities compared with their interaction with white people?
Do you ignore the economic statistics about such things as housing loans, living conditions, employment, and related matters?
You seem to believe that just because certain laws have been removed from the books, that evil which those laws supported disappeared.
Again, read the two books mentioned upstream. Maybe then you will see how your language, unintentionally probably, echoes that of the white nationalists. And how your words are the kind of words which encourage too many people to say “there’s nothing to see here, move on.“

Especially Charles, but also others who are interested, below is a 4 minute interview with a former U.S. police officer who has a take on the Derek Chauvin trial that is refreshing!  This interview shows that, as Peter says, Charles is looking at this case and many other things through a particular "lens" that lumps everything into RACISM.  Here's the link to the interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN6wNpsPEso
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 05:25:19 PM by Tom Eckstein »
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11523
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2021, 05:23:12 PM »
Peter, each of your comments proves again and again how clueless you are about this particular problem in our land and this discussion. Just because racism is not supported by  “law“ does not mean it is not systemic in our society.
I ask again, do you ignore the statistics about how minorities are treated by our justice system?
Do you ignore the statistics about police interaction with minorities compared with their interaction with white people?
Do you ignore the economic statistics about such things as housing loans, living conditions, employment, and related matters?
You seem to believe that just because certain laws have been removed from the books, that evil which those laws supported disappeared.
Again, read the two books mentioned upstream. Maybe then you will see how your language, unintentionally probably, echoes that of the white nationalists. And how your words are the kind of words which encourage too many people to say “there’s nothing to see here, move on.“

Especially Charles, but also others who are interested, below is a 4 minute interview with a former U.S. police officer who has a take on the Derek Chauvin trial that is refreshing!  This interview shows that, as Peter says, Charles is looking at this case any many other things through a particular "lens" that lumps everything into RACISM.  Here's the link to the interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN6wNpsPEso

Wow! What do you really think, Officer Tatum?   ;)

Thanks, Tom.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Tom Eckstein

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
  • Tom Eckstein
    • View Profile
    • Concordia Lutheran Church, Jamestown, ND
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2021, 05:34:07 PM »
Also, did anyone here hear about the Tony Timpa case?  My guess is "no."  Why not?  Tony was white.  His death was very similar to what happened to George Floyd.  See this 2 minute video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utVvDu-K3Qg

If Tony Timpa had been black, do you think we would have heard MORE about this case?  If so, why?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 05:35:42 PM by Tom Eckstein »
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11523
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #110 on: April 22, 2021, 05:39:16 PM »
Also, did anyone here hear about the Tony Timpa case?  My guess is "no."  Why not?  Tony was white.  His death was very similar to what happened to George Floyd.  See this 2 minute video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utVvDu-K3Qg

If Tony Timpa had been black, do you think we would have heard MORE about this case?  If so, why?

Cracking jokes and laughing. And back on the job.  :o
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Tom Eckstein

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
  • Tom Eckstein
    • View Profile
    • Concordia Lutheran Church, Jamestown, ND
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #111 on: April 22, 2021, 05:41:38 PM »
Also, did anyone here hear about the Tony Timpa case?  My guess is "no."  Why not?  Tony was white.  His death was very similar to what happened to George Floyd.  See this 2 minute video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utVvDu-K3Qg

If Tony Timpa had been black, do you think we would have heard MORE about this case?  If so, why?

Cracking jokes and laughing. And back on the job.  :o

Don, I agree, this is SAD!!  But equally sad is the fact that we heard NOTHING about this in the  media compared to the George Floyd incident.  Also, no riots for Tony Timpa!
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Michael Slusser

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5324
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #112 on: April 22, 2021, 05:55:13 PM »
I had not heard about the Tony Timpa case. There's a Cato Institute blogpost on it, https://www.cato.org/blog/cops-who-killed-tony-timpa-are-unfit-serve-courts-ensure-they-keep-their-jobs and it is shocking. The description of the death is very similar to the death of George Floyd.
Quote
Restraining Tony’s legs and putting him in police cuffs, the officers laid him prone and kneeled on his body. They ignored his cries that they were killing him. They brushed off his agonal respiration as “snoring.” They cracked juvenile jokes to one another as Tony slid into unconsciousness: “It’s time for school! Wake up!” remarks one officer when Tony stops responding. After 14 minutes of compacting Tony’s lungs as he begged for his life until he could no longer speak, officers finally turned Tony over to a trained paramedic. “He’s dead,” the paramedic declares almost immediately after Tony is lifted into the ambulance.

The Cato Institute has  filed an amicus brief in the attempt to have the case reopened, and to challenge the doctrine of "qualified immunity" for police acting in the line of duty.
Quote
As we argue in our brief, the ill‐​defined qualified immunity standard is regularly misconstrued by lower courts in ways that put even the most reprehensible police behavior beyond reproach. The result is rapidly declining public confidence that makes police work more difficult and good talent harder to recruit.

Thanks, Pr. Eckstein.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4082
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #113 on: April 22, 2021, 06:04:42 PM »
I had not heard about the Tony Timpa case. There's a Cato Institute blogpost on it, https://www.cato.org/blog/cops-who-killed-tony-timpa-are-unfit-serve-courts-ensure-they-keep-their-jobs and it is shocking. The description of the death is very similar to the death of George Floyd.
Quote
Restraining Tony’s legs and putting him in police cuffs, the officers laid him prone and kneeled on his body. They ignored his cries that they were killing him. They brushed off his agonal respiration as “snoring.” They cracked juvenile jokes to one another as Tony slid into unconsciousness: “It’s time for school! Wake up!” remarks one officer when Tony stops responding. After 14 minutes of compacting Tony’s lungs as he begged for his life until he could no longer speak, officers finally turned Tony over to a trained paramedic. “He’s dead,” the paramedic declares almost immediately after Tony is lifted into the ambulance.

The Cato Institute has  filed an amicus brief in the attempt to have the case reopened, and to challenge the doctrine of "qualified immunity" for police acting in the line of duty.
Quote
As we argue in our brief, the ill‐​defined qualified immunity standard is regularly misconstrued by lower courts in ways that put even the most reprehensible police behavior beyond reproach. The result is rapidly declining public confidence that makes police work more difficult and good talent harder to recruit.

Thanks, Pr. Eckstein.

Peace,
Michael


I think that the effort to eliminate or redefine the qualified-immunity doctrine could succeed. Justice Thomas has indicated his belief that the doctrine needs to be re-examined. Given the right case, justices across the spectrum could well agree.

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11523
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #114 on: April 22, 2021, 07:01:09 PM »
Peter, each of your comments proves again and again how clueless you are about this particular problem in our land and this discussion. Just because racism is not supported by  “law“ does not mean it is not systemic in our society.
I ask again, do you ignore the statistics about how minorities are treated by our justice system?
Do you ignore the statistics about police interaction with minorities compared with their interaction with white people?
Do you ignore the economic statistics about such things as housing loans, living conditions, employment, and related matters?
You seem to believe that just because certain laws have been removed from the books, that evil which those laws supported disappeared.
Again, read the two books mentioned upstream. Maybe then you will see how your language, unintentionally probably, echoes that of the white nationalists. And how your words are the kind of words which encourage too many people to say “there’s nothing to see here, move on.“

Especially Charles, but also others who are interested, below is a 4 minute interview with a former U.S. police officer who has a take on the Derek Chauvin trial that is refreshing!  This interview shows that, as Peter says, Charles is looking at this case and many other things through a particular "lens" that lumps everything into RACISM.  Here's the link to the interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN6wNpsPEso

Looks like he was on FOX last night too.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/brandon-tatum-leftist-lies-about-police-hurting-black-people?fbclid=IwAR3SvQiC32aCXKLXDUgQ3e_L2T7nhiW4-QsiniX6EU-njwGskPMQFkPqBBI
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43152
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #115 on: April 22, 2021, 07:16:14 PM »
What convinces you that officer Chauvin would have treated a white suspect in exactly the same way that he treated George Floyd; that he would have used excessive force that caused his death?

What convinces you that he would not have?  It is those leveling the charge of racism who are responsible for proving it.


I don't have access to reports of the ways officer Chauvin treated other suspects during his years of service. A review of them with race factored in, could illustrate whether or not he treated blacks differently than whites. Apparently, the DOJ will be looking at such records of the whole department. Not just for racisms, but also for excessive force.


We do know from statistics, that blacks are arrested and in prison at a higher proportion than they exist in the population. Racism could be a factor in that (arrests and convictions at a higher rate because they are black). It is not likely to be the only factor. Economics (poorer people are not able to hire the better lawyers). The percentage of lower economic people in prison may be higher than the percentage of them in the population, too.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 07:26:48 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43152
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #116 on: April 22, 2021, 07:24:40 PM »
Also, did anyone here hear about the Tony Timpa case?  My guess is "no."  Why not?  Tony was white.  His death was very similar to what happened to George Floyd.  See this 2 minute video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utVvDu-K3Qg

If Tony Timpa had been black, do you think we would have heard MORE about this case?  If so, why?


If a bystander had videoed the events and put in on social media, we certainly would have heard more about this case. That, besides the race issue, is what put George Floyd's case in the spotlight. It wasn't the police footage that caused the demonstrations.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James S. Rustad

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 986
  • μολὼν λαβέ
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #117 on: April 23, 2021, 12:14:21 PM »
Also, did anyone here hear about the Tony Timpa case?  My guess is "no."  Why not?  Tony was white.  His death was very similar to what happened to George Floyd.  See this 2 minute video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utVvDu-K3Qg

If Tony Timpa had been black, do you think we would have heard MORE about this case?  If so, why?

If a bystander had videoed the events and put in on social media, we certainly would have heard more about this case. That, besides the race issue, is what put George Floyd's case in the spotlight. It wasn't the police footage that caused the demonstrations.

Both cases had video.
Both cases have that video readily available.
Both cases resulted in death at the hands of police.

I don't see that much difference between the two cases other than the time between when it occurred and when it first hit social media.  It was then essentially ignored other than the original Facebook post.  Remember that there is not a lot of bystander video in the Floyd case so widespread attention doesn't seem to depend on lots of video.
https://www.facebook.com/dallasmorningnews/videos/353107168718795/

Maybe you'd prefer the case of Angelo Quinto.  After all, this case has bystander video (linked in the Reason article).
https://reason.com/2021/02/26/angelo-quinto-death-police-knelt-neck-mental-health-antioch-mayor-lamar-thorpe/

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11523
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #118 on: April 23, 2021, 06:25:05 PM »
On the other hand,

Monster: "one who deviates from normal or acceptable behavior or character"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monster

https://www.foxnews.com/us/doj-derek-chauvin-2017-arrest-14-year-old-boy-report

"Just like with Floyd, Chauvin used an unreasonable amount of force without regard for the need for that level of force or the victim's well-being. Just like with Floyd, when the child was slow to comply with Chauvin and [the other officer's] instructions, Chauvin grabbed the child by the throat, forced him to the ground in the prone position, and placed his knee on the child's neck with so much force that the child began to cry out in pain and tell Chauvin he could not breathe."

Uh oh!
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

J. Thomas Shelley

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3997
    • View Profile
Re: Chauvin Trial and verdict
« Reply #119 on: April 23, 2021, 07:17:43 PM »
On the other hand,

Monster: "one who deviates from normal or acceptable behavior or character"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monster

https://www.foxnews.com/us/doj-derek-chauvin-2017-arrest-14-year-old-boy-report

"Just like with Floyd, Chauvin used an unreasonable amount of force without regard for the need for that level of force or the victim's well-being. Just like with Floyd, when the child was slow to comply with Chauvin and [the other officer's] instructions, Chauvin grabbed the child by the throat, forced him to the ground in the prone position, and placed his knee on the child's neck with so much force that the child began to cry out in pain and tell Chauvin he could not breathe."

Uh oh!

Negligent retention, anyone?
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015