Author Topic: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative  (Read 1478 times)

Randy Bosch

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 508
    • View Profile
Rod Dreher gives a "half right" opinion about David Brooks French view of what's wrong with America's churches:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/david-french-source-of-the-church-problem-liberal-conservative/
Interesting viewpoint.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 09:24:43 PM by Randy Bosch »

MaddogLutheran

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3490
  • It's my fantasy football avatar...
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2021, 02:33:25 PM »
I'll assume you meant David French, not Brooks...
Rod Dreher gives a "half right" opinion about David Brooks view of what's wrong with America's churches:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/david-french-source-of-the-church-problem-liberal-conservative/
Interesting viewpoint.

Generally the "both-and" is the better Lutheran response, so thank you for sharing this.  Maybe it's my Lutheran approach to ethics (as opposed to Calvinism's sovereign desire to try and perfect God's kingdom in this world using government to better man wherever possible), but I am not terribly interested in the Church being involved in politics.  Why I'm ambivalent at best with the pro-life movement specifically attacking Roe v. Wade.  Better to win hearts and minds that abortion should be avoided than trying to mandate that by law, for example.

What I want from government is to fully respect First Amendment freedoms, which is much more than freedom to worship.  Which is why I'm unphased by the dog-whistle baiting of some who want to ask if I would be bothered by an actual Muslim president (as opposed to the faux-imagined Barack H. Obama).  I don't particularly care who is president, or governor, or mayor, as long as they truly respect the free exercise clause.  And as we've seen during the pandemic, some have not.  It's the opposite of a pluralistic society to attack those institutions that, because of historic teaching, still uphold traditional marriage.  Trying to revoke their tax-exempt status (the next great cause cťlŤbre to make America great at long last) is little different than the puritan motives expressed in the novel The Scarlet Letter.  Meet the new boss...
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 02:35:10 PM by MaddogLutheran »
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Jeremy_Loesch

  • ALPB Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2021, 03:13:12 PM »
Thank you Mad Dog for that wonderful perspective. I'd buy you a cheesesteak wit' if I still lived in that area. Mandating Christian morality will only lead to resentment and playing the game of "How much can I get away with?"

And yes, having a president who respects the free exercise clause of the first amendment (as well as the other amendments) is of first importance to me.

Jeremy

Randy Bosch

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 508
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2021, 09:25:30 PM »
I'll assume you meant David French, not Brooks...

Yes, thank you.  Fixed it. 

J. Thomas Shelley

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4000
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2021, 10:36:36 PM »
And yes, having a president who respects the free exercise clause of the first amendment (as well as the other amendments) is of first importance to me.

Which, for me, makes the current regime's pronouncement that "No Amendment to the Constitution is absolute" positively terrifying.
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

Jeremy_Loesch

  • ALPB Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2021, 06:11:46 AM »
Yes. I believe the current administration made their oaths to the constitution with their fingers crossed behind their backs.

Jeremy

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13579
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2021, 09:15:00 AM »
And almost instantly, fewer than 10 responses into the topic, we have snarky attacks on progressive elected officials. We donít get discussions of policies, instead we are told that they are lying to us, not about policies, but about their own attitudes and persons.
And we get broadside attacks without evidence about them being opposed to the constitution.
Really helpful, right?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

MaddogLutheran

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3490
  • It's my fantasy football avatar...
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2021, 09:23:43 AM »
Again I'll ask...why is this allowed?

And almost instantly, fewer than 10 responses into the topic, we have snarky attacks on progressive elected officials. We donít get discussions of policies, instead we are told that they are lying to us, not about policies, but about their own attitudes and persons.
And we get broadside attacks without evidence about them being opposed to the constitution.
Really helpful, right?

From another recent thread:
And I comment:
The "difficulties" with masks is that too many people are too lazy or too dim or too lackadaisical or to sloppy or too driven by bias to learn how to use masks properly, wear them properly and be diligent in related aspects of the proven ways masks help to mitigate the spread of the virus.

A person who does this should not be allowed to continue and complain about others here.  This is a major issue on the forum...not anonymous posters.  If my post is deleted, at least I know it has been seen.
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Jeremy Loesch

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2236
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2021, 09:45:26 AM »
Charles, it is my opinion from my observations the last 5-10 years at least.

It's no longer "freedom of religion" but has become "freedom to worship"
Covid certainly revealed arbitrary decisions regarding the free assembly clause of the 1st amendment. 
Tom brought up the present administration's fluidity regarding the constitution. 

If you don't like that I wrote the present administration made their oaths with their finger's crossed, then I'll change it and say that they made their oaths with the addendum, "until it is not convenient." 

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

Weedon

  • Guest
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2021, 10:25:25 AM »
I want to at least ďamenĒ what Sterling wrote. That Pr. Austin doesnít recognize the problem is sad but obvious; but what is absolutely befuddling to me and I think to so many across the years is the way that it is given a constant pass (with only an occasional slap on the wrist). And I want to stress: itís not the position put forth that ought not be allowed; it is the manner of its being put forth with ridicule and scorn. And I hasten to add that Pr. Austin has never been anything but kind and gracious in his dealings with me on this forum, and Iím grateful for that. But then there are so many instances like Sterling pointed out, and I just donít get how it keeps happening.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 10:28:07 AM by Weedon »

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13579
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2021, 11:20:20 AM »
Not that it matters, but Iíll give Pastor Loesch a pass on the nature of his comments. My opinion of how he views those who recently took the earth of office isnít important.
And thank you, Pastor Weedon, for noting that our interactions have been, in your words, ďkind and gracious.ď I have also thought that.
As for some other interactions, I just donít know what to say. I occasionally find a need to speak forcefully. I make no apologies for that.
I think people  Involved in discussions like this need to grow a thick skin, one tough enough to bear the sharp pokes from those with whom we disagree.
And I still really donít like it when we write to people here out of the Christian faith, or out of the Lutheran family.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3791
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2021, 11:21:04 AM »
And almost instantly, fewer than 10 responses into the topic, we have snarky attacks on progressive elected officials. We donít get discussions of policies, instead we are told that they are lying to us, not about policies, but about their own attitudes and persons.
And we get broadside attacks without evidence about them being opposed to the constitution.
Really helpful, right?

Have you read ANY of your posts about President Trump during his administration?  To quote someone famous: "Come on, man!"

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2021, 11:27:29 AM »
Charles, it is my opinion from my observations the last 5-10 years at least.

It's no longer "freedom of religion" but has become "freedom to worship"
Covid certainly revealed arbitrary decisions regarding the free assembly clause of the 1st amendment. 
Tom brought up the present administration's fluidity regarding the constitution. 

If you don't like that I wrote the present administration made their oaths with their finger's crossed, then I'll change it and say that they made their oaths with the addendum, "until it is not convenient." 


If you believe that your state government overstepped constitutional boundaries by forcing places of worship to close, then you should challenge their decision in court. (The federal government didn't mandate it.) As I noted earlier, my ELCA colleague in town never stopped holding in-house worship services - with precautions. Our state never closed churches, although many stopped holding in-house services - like the one I used to serve.


Oh, I should add, that when a member of that congregation, who opposed the pastor's decision to remain open, had the sheriff's office send a deputy to stop a worship service, the pastor was better informed about our state's mandates than the deputy - and worship continued as he had planned.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 11:29:45 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2021, 11:37:42 AM »
Again I'll ask...why is this allowed?

And almost instantly, fewer than 10 responses into the topic, we have snarky attacks on progressive elected officials. We donít get discussions of policies, instead we are told that they are lying to us, not about policies, but about their own attitudes and persons.
And we get broadside attacks without evidence about them being opposed to the constitution.
Really helpful, right?

From another recent thread:
And I comment:
The "difficulties" with masks is that too many people are too lazy or too dim or too lackadaisical or to sloppy or too driven by bias to learn how to use masks properly, wear them properly and be diligent in related aspects of the proven ways masks help to mitigate the spread of the virus.

A person who does this should not be allowed to continue and complain about others here.  This is a major issue on the forum...not anonymous posters.  If my post is deleted, at least I know it has been seen.


What is the "this" in your "does this" referring to? Charles expressed his opinion about people who are unwilling to wear masks or wear them properly. I feel the same way when I see people in stores without masks or have them hanging below their noses.


Conversely, I am elated with the vast majority of people who continue to wear masks over their noses and mouths when I go out, e.g., to Walmart; even though our state doesn't have a mask mandate, but many business do.


While I'm not quite the wordsmith as Charles so I'm not likely to use the phrase: "lackadaisical or to sloppy or too driven by bias," however, "stupid," is the one-word adjective that usually pops into my head when I see poorly masked or unmasked people around me.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Source of the Church Problem - Liberal viz a vez Conservative
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2021, 11:53:15 AM »
Capitalism: "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state" (New Oxford American Dictionary, boldface added); creates an anti-Christian culture. "For profit" feeds human greed. Capitalists invest capital so that they can make more capital for themselves.


Jesus' culture is about loving our neighbors (even the ones we don't like). We are to be motivated by their needs; not our greed. This is not a liberal vs. conservative issue; it's a Christian vs. world issue; and the world is winning in America. I remember years ago a Russian Orthodox from Russia critiquing American Christians as worshiping the idol of materialism. Most Americans are quite comfortable worshiping that golden calf - and calling it Christianity.


Regarding liberal vs. conservative: I recently posted this on Facebook.


A criticism leveled at some ELCA folks is that they are just as judgmental towards the non-liberals as conservatives are towards liberals. Properly defined, "liberal" means "willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas" (Oxford New American Dictionary). It just might be that the NALC, LCMS, and other conservatives are testing the boundaries of our openness towards those who are different. E.g., we, (the ELCA,) are proud of our openness towards women and glbt folks, but sometimes are not so open towards conservatives. Granted, it's hard to be open towards the people who want to shut us out; but if we shut them out, we've become just like them.


I'm afraid that some liberals do not fit this definition of liberal.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]