Author Topic: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521  (Read 3152 times)

Dave Benke

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2021, 07:02:23 PM »
“At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said...If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

 :'(

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The "Here I Stand Sunday" resolution encourages congregations to receive a thank-offering on the 500th anniversary of Luther's defense at the Diet of Worms. It doesn't tell them what to do with it other than use it for "the continued proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world."

Don't like the LCMS International Center (headquarters), President Harrison, Synod's fundraising work/methods, LCMS International Mission, LCMS National Mission, Pastoral Ed..... find something that you believe is worthy of your hard-earned money - as the Lord provides it - and give it there. Keep it local if that's where you believe it will do the greatest good. The invitation to support LCMS mission efforts through a gift to the LCMS is nothing more than an invitation. Giving should always be a voluntary Spirit-driven act, not a humanly manipulated one.

Good thoughts, Mark - we have had a bunch of church worker deaths here, most recently one of my predecessor District Presidents, Henry Koepchen, who died this morning.  I'm thinking to encourage offerings to the fund for leadership education established under the name of one of my other predecessors, Ron Fink. 

I bolded "Pastoral Ed" because the first time I read it I thought you had written "Pastor Ed," who's a contributor on this board.  Why, I thought, were you singling Pastor Ed out?  But - you weren't.

Dave Benke


peter_speckhard

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2021, 10:41:34 PM »
Money to support “the continued proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world” should probably go to the proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world. Why focus on something that fulfills that goal tangentially at best— leadership education— rather than on something that does it directly? If a resolution called for support of leadership education and someone sought to fulfill that goal by funding overseas missionaries I’d have the same question.

Dave Benke

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2021, 08:37:51 AM »
Money to support “the continued proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world” should probably go to the proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world. Why focus on something that fulfills that goal tangentially at best— leadership education— rather than on something that does it directly? If a resolution called for support of leadership education and someone sought to fulfill that goal by funding overseas missionaries I’d have the same question.

Here's your answer, from Mark Hofman - Keep it local if that's where you believe it will do the greatest good. Sounds as though you're saying he's not giving good advice. 

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2021, 09:15:36 AM »
Money to support “the continued proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world” should probably go to the proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world. Why focus on something that fulfills that goal tangentially at best— leadership education— rather than on something that does it directly? If a resolution called for support of leadership education and someone sought to fulfill that goal by funding overseas missionaries I’d have the same question.

Here's your answer, from Mark Hofman - Keep it local if that's where you believe it will do the greatest good. Sounds as though you're saying he's not giving good advice. 

Dave Benke
No, I'm saying that if you want to keep it local because that's where it will do the greatest good, fine. But then don't refer to it as your response to a synodical resolution to support missions throughout the world. Mark Hofman addressed people who don't like the way the LCMS does global mission work. Fine. Do some other mission in some other way. If the LCMS passed a resolution calling for support of inner city missions and I advised people to support rural poverty relief efforts if they are closer to home and you think it would do more good, well, they don't have to be mutually-exclusive, but it would come across as taking a pot shot at the appeal for support for inner city missions.     

Dave Benke

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2021, 10:59:45 AM »
Money to support “the continued proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world” should probably go to the proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world. Why focus on something that fulfills that goal tangentially at best— leadership education— rather than on something that does it directly? If a resolution called for support of leadership education and someone sought to fulfill that goal by funding overseas missionaries I’d have the same question.

Here's your answer, from Mark Hofman - Keep it local if that's where you believe it will do the greatest good. Sounds as though you're saying he's not giving good advice. 

Dave Benke
No, I'm saying that if you want to keep it local because that's where it will do the greatest good, fine. But then don't refer to it as your response to a synodical resolution to support missions throughout the world. Mark Hofman addressed people who don't like the way the LCMS does global mission work. Fine. Do some other mission in some other way. If the LCMS passed a resolution calling for support of inner city missions and I advised people to support rural poverty relief efforts if they are closer to home and you think it would do more good, well, they don't have to be mutually-exclusive, but it would come across as taking a pot shot at the appeal for support for inner city missions.   

OK, that will work.  Mark is stating that the option is ours, and from my perspective, there's no deeper shot being taken at the pot.

Dave Benke

Mark_Hofman

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2021, 02:08:54 PM »
The April 18 anniversary is just an opportunity for a Lutheran to take a stand for the Gospel. Pick something. Take a stand. Stand as boldly as Luther did in front of Charles V and Eck (and the Roman Catholic church) even in the face of death. "Stick it to the (secular, unbelieving) man" and do something bold in Christ's name - even if it costs you.

The only downside of a celebration like this is that no one - especially the Synod headquarters - will be able to come back later and tally the level of joyful generosity or detail the beautiful stories that will transpire. We will see that through the slit of squinted eyes and lose the peripheral vision of what God's people are actually capable of doing when they take a stand. Give up any hope of true transparency to anyone except God Himself.

Norman Teigen

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2021, 08:25:23 PM »
Luther appealed to conscience at the Diet of Worms.  Professor Heiko Oberman discusses the matter of conscience for the Reformer.    "Appealing to conscience was common medieval practice; appealing to a 'free' conscience that had liberated itself from all bonds would never have occurred to Luther.  Nor did he regard 'conscience'  identical with the inescapable voice of God in man.  Conscience  is neither neutral nor autonomous: hotly contested by God and the Devil, it is not the autonomous center of man's personality, it is always guided and is free only once God has freed and 'captured' it.  What is new in Luther is the notion of absolute obedience to the Scripture against any authorities; be they popes or councils.  The way Luther dislodges the Christian conscience  from its individual, immediate proximity to God and integrates it into the obligation to heed reasonable world and historical experience is innovative.  Faith is not founded on reason:  God's omnipotence transcends reason and the cross of Christ contradicts it.  Actions, on the other hand, must be able to stand the test of reason and experience because their sole objective is service to one's neighbor, there no room here for justification or self-sanctfiication.  Luther liberated the Christian conscience, liberated it from papal decree and canon law.   But he also took it captive through the Word of God and imposed on it  the responsibility to render service to the world."   Heiko  Oberman, 'Luther. Man Between God and the Devil'; Yale University Press, 1989.  p. 204
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 08:27:35 PM by Norman Teigen »
Norman Teigen

Dave Likeness

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2021, 09:45:03 PM »
Martin Luther believed that the human conscience needs unconditional certainty which
Scripture, the Word of God gives.  We may trust unconditionally only in the Word of God
because it never errs. Therefore it alone has unconditional authority.

John_Hannah

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2021, 07:42:00 AM »
I will give thanks to God for the remarkable progress toward healing between Lutherans and Roman Catholics these past 500 years. Unfortunately communion is not fully restored but the old acrimony and hostility have all but disappeared. That is a gift of the Holy Spirit and not by our own reason or strength.

I have given a donation to Holy Family, my neighbor Roman Catholic parish. It has a vibrant Hispanic ministry (with no reference to Carlos V).   ;D

Peace, JOHN

« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 11:00:53 AM by John_Hannah »
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Weedon

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2021, 12:53:54 PM »
John,

It is indeed something to give thanks to God for: the easing of polemical firebombing. In many ways, the SA is the most polemical of Luther’s writings against the Pope in our Book of Concord, and yet even there, we have the statement in SA IV:1 that the Pope is the only the bishop of the Church at Rome and any who are joined to him by some human arrangement “in order to be Christians alongside him as a brother and companion, but not under him as a lord.” Our brother and companion and the bishop of the Church there in Rome; not a bad place to begin...

Dave Likeness

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2021, 01:13:45 PM »
As far as the Roman Catholic Church & the Luth. Church Missouri Synod are concerned
we have joined forces in some practical areas of daily life in the recent past.  We have
worked together as pro-life advocates on the issue of abortion.  We both consider
abortion the murder of a human life.  We also have the same stance on homosexual
marriage as something forbidden by God. For both of us marriage as instituted by God
is between one man and one woman.

Mbecker

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Re: Diet of Worms Anniversary-1521
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2021, 02:46:35 PM »
Luther arrives in Worms on April 16. I will be brushing up on my church history this week.  Any thoughts?  Special reading recommendations would be appreciated.

I wrote this week's blog post about Luther's "stand" at the Diet of Worms:

http://matthewlbecker.blogspot.com/2021/04/luther-at-worms.html

The lead article in this quarter's issue of Lutheran Quarterly, from which I quote, is a good entry point for further study.

I have visited Worms a few times. Not a lot for a US traveler to see in that industrial city, but the Lutherdenkmal is a nice photo op, as are the baroque Reformation Memorial Church (about which John has written) and the renovated St. Peter Cathedral.

Matt Becker
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 02:57:12 PM by Mbecker »