Author Topic: Vaccine Discussin  (Read 2395 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2021, 03:33:23 PM »
Well, folks, I was using pretty much the exact words of one of the doctors in our facility who answered a question like the one presented here from one of our residents. “For heavens sake,“ he said, you don’t make medical decisions on something that you heard.

Jebutler writes:
There have been reports of others who have died from the vaccine.
I ask:
Show me these reports. Tell me where they came from, and the competence of the people who are reporting them. And tell me what the doctors have to say about the vaccine after a “report“ that someone “died from the vaccine.“
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Charles Austin

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2021, 03:47:21 PM »
Deutsche Welle did a fact check on reports of death from vaccinations all over the world. You can read it here.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-no-links-found-between-vaccination-and-deaths/a-56458746

Then, if you’ve not already done so, go get vaccinated, or schedule your appointment.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2021, 04:03:58 PM »
Deutsche Welle did a fact check on reports of death from vaccinations all over the world. You can read it here.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-no-links-found-between-vaccination-and-deaths/a-56458746

Then, if you’ve not already done so, go get vaccinated, or schedule your appointment.

My body, my choice.  Right?  And before you start bleating about how if I don't get vaccinated I MIGHT cause someone else harm, remember that every abortion ALWAYS causes harm -- even death -- to at least one person.  Always.  Yet I don't hear you on the same soapbox about ending abortions.  Maybe when THAT happens, I will reconsider your appeals to the health of others in regards to this vaccination.

And by the way, as JEdwards' post above about the necessity of a second dose shows, the science on these vaccines is far from complete.  It seems legitimate to me for someone to say they wish to wait and see.  Whenever something new comes out, many experts advise waiting until all the "bugs" are sorted out before buying.

Dave Likeness

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2021, 04:17:07 PM »
People who are over 70 years old.......they have a good reason to get vaccinated.
It could be a matter of life or death.  A 70 year old body is more prone to a virus
than a 30 year old body.  For the 70 yr old person it is perhaps not a tough decision.

Regardless of age every person has the freedom of choice whether to get the vaccine.
None of us should sit in judgment on those folks who do not get vaccinated.  To be
honest about the over 70 crowd, it could be a matter of self-preservation.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2021, 04:45:58 PM »
Generally speaking, it seems to me that in the great majority of cases the responsible and wise choice seems to be to take the Covid vaccination when it is offered. One can find support for just about any conclusion about anything that one wants on the internet, especially if one is willing to accept as fact items on the web that supports one's opinion without checking for the reliability of the sources. The reliable science on that vaccines, as far as I have seen, is that they were competently developed and tested for safety and effectiveness. The side effects are generally mild, at most inconveniences for a few days. In rare cases the side effects apparently are sever or even debilitating. However the occurrences of sever side effects are apparently much fewer that instances of lasting debilitating effects of the disease, not to mention the instances of death from the disease which is a far higher consequence of contracting Covid than getting the vaccine. The risk from vaccination seems far lower than the risk of contracting Covid and having sever adverse effects or death from Covd. All actions or inactions entail risk. Generally the risk from the vaccines seem much lower than the risk of not vaccinating.

It still, however, seems strange to me that those who value personal choice over all other considerations, even the inevitable death of some if that choice is exercised, suddenly consider such personal choice about vaccination as of negligible value and scorn those who would choose differently than themselves.

Individual cases may well differ. Some individuals medical status may indicate that vaccination poses a significant risk that may suggest not being vaccinated. Determining that situation would properly a matter for the individual and their doctor to discuss and make determination. Deciding, for or against, simply on the basis what one has heard, or seen online, would be irresponsible. There is no good substitute for consulting one's own doctor. Even the advice given to someone else by their doctor would be inadequate if one has serious concerns. Even one who readily gives advice on discussion forums may not know an individual's conditions and the advice they received from their doctor may not really apply.


There is also a community aspect to this. It is far to early to try to give definitive judgements as to the relative effectiveness of the various levels of isolation, closure of businesses, masking protocols, etc. for slowing the spread of the coronavirus. It seems clear that some such efforts were needed and at least somewhat effective. The need to develop a general or "herd" immunity seems clear, and mass vaccination with safe and effective vaccines seems both obvious and confirmed. We have seen this in other diseases. The sooner that we reach the critical herd immunity to sooner that isolation and masking strategies can be relaxed or eliminated. Even if I am not concerned for my own health safety, the benefit to the community of developing that herd immunity would suggest a duty to be vaccinated unless there are serious health contraindicators. It should also be noted that in general, in mass vaccinations a certain number of vaccine refusers can be tolerated without compromising the overall benefit of such mass vaccinations. There will generally always be a few that should not be vaccinated.


Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Charles Austin

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2021, 04:50:15 PM »
Pastor Bohler attempts to change the discussion to his favorite topic. No, that won’t work, and we won’t go there.
Especially since I’m rather sure he isn’t serious about the “my body, my choice“ slogan.
And Dave Likeness, I shall not sit in “eternal judgment” on those who choose not to get vaccinated. But I make no apologies for applying a certain dose of “temporal judgment“ on their decisions.
As I would if someone chose to use their “freedom“ to drive 60 miles an hour through a school zone during the time that the kids were being released for the day. My judgment on that? Selfish. Stupid.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2021, 04:57:48 PM »
Pastor Bohler attempts to change the discussion to his favorite topic. No, that won’t work, and we won’t go there.
Especially since I’m rather sure he isn’t serious about the “my body, my choice“ slogan.
And how serious the pro-choice faction about the "my body, my choice" slogan if it applies to abortion but not vaccines? How serious are you?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Charles Austin

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2021, 05:04:34 PM »
I have never found the “my body, my choice” argument compelling or useful. So I have never used it.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

jebutler

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2021, 05:32:10 PM »
Well, folks, I was using pretty much the exact words of one of the doctors in our facility who answered a question like the one presented here from one of our residents. “For heavens sake,“ he said, you don’t make medical decisions on something that you heard.

Jebutler writes:
There have been reports of others who have died from the vaccine.
I ask:
Show me these reports. Tell me where they came from, and the competence of the people who are reporting them. And tell me what the doctors have to say about the vaccine after a “report“ that someone “died from the vaccine.“

There is this thing called the Centers for Disease Control. Don't know if you've heard of it or not, but its part of the U.S. Government. The CDC has this thing called the "Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System" (VAERS).

According to VAERS, "Over 167 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through April 5, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 2,794 reports of death (0.00167%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

Now, you might questions the "the competence of the people who are reporting" this information, but I think this constitutes a "'report' that someone 'died from the vaccine.'“

Now, you might question the preposition "from." Is there any evidence that the vaccine caused any of these deaths? The CDC states, "A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."

However, after an autopsy of a Utah woman who died within days of receving the second vaccine, "Dr. Erik Christensen, Utah's chief Medical Examiner, said proving vaccine injury as a cause of death almost never happens."  Further,
"Christensen can think of only one instance where you would see a vaccine as the cause of death on an official autopsy report, and that would be in an immediate case of anaphylaxis — one where a person received the vaccine and died almost instantaneously, he said. 'Short of that, it would be difficult for us to definitively say this is the vaccine.' A more likely result would be a lack of answers or an 'incomplete autopsy.'” https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-woman-39-dies-4-days-after-2nd-does-of-covid-19-vaccine-autopsy-ordered

So, someone who does autopsies all of the time you can't ever know if a vaccine (any vaccine) is the cause of death or not. Apparently, autopsies aren't designed to reveal that kind of information.

As to Rolf's question, different doctors will give you different advice. One of the interesting things about my congregation is that we have many doctors and medical researchers. They work at places like Boston Children's, Mass General, the University of Rhode Island, Tufts University, Dana Farber, and Moderna.

I was talking with some of them about this very question after church one morning, as one of our preschool staff had COVID a month ago and didn't know if she should be vaccinated now or if she should wait. The consensus: there is no consensus. We simply don't know enough yet; this is all still too new (we've been vaccinating for less than six months). While they all suggested she talk with her primary, they also said that different doctors would give different advice. When she told her doctor that she was going on vacation to another state in May, the doctor told her to get the vaccine, that way she wouldn't need a COVID test when she returned. Otherwise, she should put it off. I had to admit, that was a practical answer.

These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

Charles Austin

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2021, 06:09:57 PM »
Jebutler (still anonymous?) reports:
 The CDC states, "A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."
I comment:
Good. So your statement upstream that the vaccine can cause significant deaths, enough to be wary of taking it, is withdrawn?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Weedon

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2021, 06:28:22 PM »
Pastor Austin,

I think Jim’s point is that proving causation (for anything!) is notoriously difficult; but noting correlation is not. True, of course, post hoc ergo propter hoc will remain fallacious, but if enough post hoc occurs, it might well lead folks to be wary of the hoc!

jebutler

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2021, 07:42:33 PM »
Jebutler (still anonymous?) reports:

My name is J. E. Butler. I have no idea how you could possibly think I am posting anonymously when I am using my actual name. For most people, that would be a contradiction in terms, but for you it's apparently possible. The fact that you not only think so, but publicly state it, explains a lot.

Good. So your statement upstream that the vaccine can cause significant deaths, enough to be wary of taking it, is withdrawn?

I withdraw nothing. I wonder why you would think so.

1. People have died after getting COVID-19 vaccines. Very few, yes, but still some.

2. While the CDC states that autopsies have not given evidence that COVID vaccines have caused deaths, the fact is that autopsies can't rule it out either. They can only demonstrate that there isn't some other reason the person died.

3. We have been distributing the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines for less than six months; J and J/Jansen for even less time. We are getting more real world data all of the time. In time, researchers may be able to be more definitive one way or another.

4. This is analogous to the problems with blood clots and the AstraZenca vaccine which led several European countries to halt distribution of that vaccine. Yes, some people getting that vaccine got blood clots. While researchers doubt there is a link, they cannot definitively prove it one way or the other. They can only demonstrate that it is very rare.

People have died after receiving the vaccine. While researchers doubt there is a link, they cannot, at this time, definitively prove it one way or the other. They can only demonstrate that it is extremely rare (0.00167%).

5. The really weird thing is that I recently had this conversation with a staff member who was worried when she read that there were over 2000 people who had received a COVID vaccine had died and was wondering if she should get it. I agreed, yes, that many people have died. But a) the linkage is doubtful; and b) even if there is a link, her chances of dying from one of the vaccines are less than her chances of getting struck by lighting. I then helped her make her appointment.

Hopefully, this is clear enough even for someone who thinks I'm posting anonymously under my real name.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 07:51:59 PM by jebutler »
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

James S. Rustad

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2021, 07:45:10 PM »
Jebutler (still anonymous?) reports:
 The CDC states, "A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."
I comment:
Good. So your statement upstream that the vaccine can cause significant deaths, enough to be wary of taking it, is withdrawn?

So now you pivot from "cannot kill you" to cannot "cause significant deaths"?  Whatever happened to "if it saves one life"?

And you ignored the whole discussion about how hard it is to prove causality...

The point is that there is some risk in all vaccination.  Why do you think they have you sign a disclaimer indicating that you're aware that there are risks of side effects and that some could be serious?  You did read the fact sheet before signing, didn't you?

« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 07:47:27 PM by James S. Rustad »

peter_speckhard

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2021, 08:10:04 PM »
Jebutler (still anonymous?) reports:
 The CDC states, "A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."
I comment:
Good. So your statement upstream that the vaccine can cause significant deaths, enough to be wary of taking it, is withdrawn?

So now you pivot from "cannot kill you" to cannot "cause significant deaths"?  Whatever happened to "if it saves one life"?

And you ignored the whole discussion about how hard it is to prove causality...

The point is that there is some risk in all vaccination.  Why do you think they have you sign a disclaimer indicating that you're aware that there are risks of side effects and that some could be serious?  You did read the fact sheet before signing, didn't you?
Yes, the experts administering the vaccines tell you there is significant risk that you need to be aware of, but listening to the experts means disregarding the whole idea that there are significant risks. How is this so complicated for you?

jebutler

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Re: Vaccine Discussin
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2021, 08:18:06 PM »
Deutsche Welle did a fact check on reports of death from vaccinations all over the world. You can read it here.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-no-links-found-between-vaccination-and-deaths/a-56458746

Then, if you’ve not already done so, go get vaccinated, or schedule your appointment.

Thank you for proving my point with this article. Glad to see that you agree with me.

The article states, "In each case, there has been more to the story than meets the eye. DW reviewed reports from Italy, Austria, South Korea, Germany, Spain, the United States, Norway, Belgium and Peru, finding that in most cases health authorities have not found causal links between the vaccination and deaths." (Emph. mine).

"Most" is not "all."

In dealing with Germany, it lists the reasons for many of the 113 deaths, but then it states, "In 50 cases, the cause of death remains unknown." One fun comment from "Brigitte Keller-Stanislawski, the head of the PEI's department of safety for medical products. 'Based on the data that we have, we assume that the patients died of their underlying disease — in a coincidental time with the vaccination.'" They didn't actually do an autopsy or anything, they are just making that assumption.

While I agree with her point, I find it ironic in that is the very same argument I've read from people who are anti-mask, anti-vax, and who want to open everything up: the only people dying from COVID are those with pre-existing conditions (close to 98% in Massachusetts). So the rest of us shouldn't worry about it.

To sum up the article:

1. A handful of people who have receive a COVID vaccine have died after receiving it.

2. While researchers do not believe there is a causal connection, no one definitively rules it out.

I'm glad you came around to my point of view. You can now untwist your knickers.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 08:22:18 PM by jebutler »
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).