Author Topic: Pesach 2021  (Read 3225 times)

D. Engebretson

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2021, 08:54:41 AM »
Maybe I'm not following here, but how is saying that the OT is fulfilled in the New and that the rites and sacrifices practiced in the Temple, home and synagogue find their fulfillment in Christ, somehow a "strange and dangerous action leading to some potentially catastrophic conclusions?" Or did I make the wrong conclusion from this comment?

Or is it the desire to see a possibility of the OT finding fulfillment, along with rites and practices such as the Passover, in other religions such as Judaism? 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2021, 11:25:39 AM »
Peter, you say “There is no need to invalidate anything,” And then you go on to do just that to the rites of Passover. Does God hear these prayers and songs? Does the observance of these rituals connect with the covenant God made with the people of those ancient times? Do those rites have any validity with regard to the connection between God and the people that were called to be his own?
Pastor Engebretson, The danger is that it is this kind of language and thinking and the attempts to invalidate the entire faith of the people of that first covenant that has led to some of the worlds most vicious and catastrophic anti-Semitism.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

George Rahn

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2021, 11:30:16 AM »
I like that kind of history, Pastor Weedon, but for me the Passover stands on its own. I can theologically choose not to break the connection with the Passover lamb and the Lord, but I also choose not to stress it in ways that have it overwhelm the Passover itself.

What kind of a statement is this?  It reminds me of statements Erasmus made in the diatribe which Luther complained about in The Bondage of the Will.  Christianity DOES say that Christ's sacrifice on the cross "overwhelm(s) the Passover itself."   Otherwise we end up where Paul was in terms of what the Galatians were confessing wrongly, ie. that circumcision/Judaism is necessary for faith in Christ.  The Passover is valid for Judaism alone.   The Passover has no validity for Christianity since in Christ's death it has been set aside.  Any statement by someone who professes to be a Christian which seems to come to the aid of the Passover's validity and then to set that within Christianity as if the validity of the Judaism must somehow precede the value of Christ misses the whole point of Christianity and faith in Christ himself. 

George Rahn

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2021, 11:34:58 AM »
Peter, you say “There is no need to invalidate anything,” And then you go on to do just that to the rites of Passover. Does God hear these prayers and songs? Does the observance of these rituals connect with the covenant God made with the people of those ancient times? Do those rites have any validity with regard to the connection between God and the people that were called to be his own?
Pastor Engebretson, The danger is that it is this kind of language and thinking and the attempts to invalidate the entire faith of the people of that first covenant that has led to some of the worlds most vicious and catastrophic anti-Semitism.

By saying that Judaism is invalid for me, a Christian, is to NOT invalidate it for a Jew.  Judaism and Jews in particular have the right to the validity of their own faith for themselves.  But it is not faith in Christ.  I am NOT being anti-semitic.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 08:33:25 PM by George Rahn »

D. Engebretson

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2021, 01:45:16 PM »
Peter, you say “There is no need to invalidate anything,” And then you go on to do just that to the rites of Passover. Does God hear these prayers and songs? Does the observance of these rituals connect with the covenant God made with the people of those ancient times? Do those rites have any validity with regard to the connection between God and the people that were called to be his own?
Pastor Engebretson, The danger is that it is this kind of language and thinking and the attempts to invalidate the entire faith of the people of that first covenant that has led to some of the worlds most vicious and catastrophic anti-Semitism.

I think that "catastrophic anti-Semitism" is far more complex than simply acknowledging that for the Christian the OT covenant finds its fulfillment in Christ alone.  Hitler, the most notorious antisemitic, wasn't even a Christian, so his racist attacks on the Jews and the attempted extermination of their race, surely wasn't motivated by Christians 'invalidating' the faith of the Jews by insisting that the OT was fulfilled in Christ.

 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Dan Fienen

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2021, 01:55:09 PM »
Is the anti-Semitism in the current Democratic Party evident in Democratic Congressional members like Minnesota Reb. Ilhan Omar and Michigan Rep. Rashida Tlaib and the inability of Congressional Democrats to censure or even specifically call them out for their anti-Semitism based on the Christian faith and theology of the Representatives or the Democratic Party as a whole? 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 02:11:51 PM by Dan Fienen »
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2021, 02:07:47 PM »
What makes a religious practice valid or invalid?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2021, 02:32:45 PM »
I like that kind of history, Pastor Weedon, but for me the Passover stands on its own. I can theologically choose not to break the connection with the Passover lamb and the Lord, but I also choose not to stress it in ways that have it overwhelm the Passover itself.

What kind of a statement is this?  It reminds me of statements Erasmus made in the diatribe which Luther complained about in The Bondage of the Will.  Christianity DOES say that Christ's sacrifice on the cross "overwhelm(s) the Passover itself."   Otherwise we end up where Paul was in terms of what the Galatians were confessing wrongly, ie. that circumcision/Judaism is necessary for faith in Christ.  The Passover is valid for Judaism alone.   The Passover has no validity for Christianity since in Christ's death it has been set aside.  Any statement by someone who professes to be a Christian which seems to come to the aid of the Passover's validity and then to set that within Christianity as if the validity of the Judaism must somehow precede the value of Christ misses the whole point of Christianity and faith in Christ himself.


While Paul argues that circumcision is not necessary for faith in Christ, we also read that he circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:3). There can be other important reasons for circumcision. Paul didn't ban the practice. Even if the Passover has no validity for Christians, it doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons we should study it.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Michael Slusser

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2021, 03:24:12 PM »
Is the anti-Semitism in the current Democratic Party evident in Democratic Congressional members like Minnesota Reb. Ilhan Omar and Michigan Rep. Rashida Tlaib and the inability of Congressional Democrats to censure or even specifically call them out for their anti-Semitism based on the Christian faith and theology of the Representatives or the Democratic Party as a whole?
Has either Omar or Tlaib worn a Camp Auschwitz T-shirt into the Capitol, or marched with torches shouting "The Jews will not replace us," or shot up a Pittsburgh synagogue because the Jews there were welcoming too many immigrants into the U.S.? Have they done anything beyond denouncing the Israeli seizing of land and handcuffing of government in the West Bank and Gaza? Is that the sum total of what you call their anti-Semitism? Or does it go farther? Have they attacked Judaism or its beliefs and practices?

A blessed Passover and Easter to all.
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2021, 04:31:59 PM »
Is the anti-Semitism in the current Democratic Party evident in Democratic Congressional members like Minnesota Reb. Ilhan Omar and Michigan Rep. Rashida Tlaib and the inability of Congressional Democrats to censure or even specifically call them out for their anti-Semitism based on the Christian faith and theology of the Representatives or the Democratic Party as a whole?
Has either Omar or Tlaib worn a Camp Auschwitz T-shirt into the Capitol, or marched with torches shouting "The Jews will not replace us," or shot up a Pittsburgh synagogue because the Jews there were welcoming too many immigrants into the U.S.? Have they done anything beyond denouncing the Israeli seizing of land and handcuffing of government in the West Bank and Gaza? Is that the sum total of what you call their anti-Semitism? Or does it go farther? Have they attacked Judaism or its beliefs and practices?

A blessed Passover and Easter to all.
Michael
You seem to want to set the bar very high for something to be considered anti-Semitic, one would need to praise the Nazi treatment of the Jewish or commit mass violence. Should that bar be set similarly high for other racisms? That one would need to call for violence against Blacks, Hispanics, or Asians before one could be considered racist?


One summary of recent Democratic anti-Semitism look at https://spectator.org/the-anti-semitism-of-aoc-omar-and-tlaib/ or https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-meaning-behind-ilhan-omar-and-rashida-tlaibs-anti-semitic-comments
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Charles Austin

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2021, 04:34:00 PM »
It is not anti-Semitic to criticize the state of Israel. The spectator article  is a bitter piece of hatred. Notice that he refers to the members of the Congress as “creatures.“
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 04:37:26 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2021, 04:37:28 PM »
But is it anti-Semitic to suggest that Senators who vote in ways that favor Israel are doing so because they have dual loyalty to America and to Israel and thus they are not really loyal to America, or that the Jews have simply bought their votes? ("It's all about the Benjamins, baby!)


Is it racist to criticize the Black Lives Matter movement?
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Charles Austin

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2021, 04:39:54 PM »
Pastor Fienen, your “well, they do it too!” Tactic is really tiresome, because “they” don’t do it too.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Dave Benke

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2021, 05:15:37 PM »
Whether someone wants to keep kosher, or slaughter or bull, or participate in the Passover, or whatever, I have nothing but respect for that person's piety and dedication. I respect Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, you name it, when they live their faith honestly. I think such piety is a worldly virtue that far exceeds anything the scoffer or "non-practicing" member of any religion has to offer. The objection is not to Jewish people engaged in the rites of Judaism. The objection is to Christians saying those rites have validity apart from fulfillment in Christ.

Do you think of the Jews as having a different relationship with Christians from Hindus, Muslims, etc.?  Do you think Christians have a different relationship with Jews from those of other religions? 

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D. Engebretson

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2021, 05:40:51 PM »
As I began to prepare for Maundy Thursday I pulled out my copy of The Lord's Supper: De Coena Domini by Martin Chemnitz (as translated b y J.A.O. Preus). He notes, regarding the Passover in relation to the Lord's Supper:

But it is beyond controversy that this supper of the Old Testament was figurative, a type, a symbol, something that signified Christ, who accomplished its final fulfillment when He said: "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer. For I say to you that I will no more eat this passover with you until it is completed in the kingdom of God" [Luke 22:15-16].
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI