Author Topic: Pesach 2021  (Read 3233 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2021, 03:25:27 AM »
Pastor Preus:
Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover. 
Me:
For us, maybe, “a” Passover. My Jewish friends have “The” Passover. And we have that one too, unless we deny our roots in that event.

St. Paul writes, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7b)  Christ has always been the Passover.  To reject Christ is to reject the Passover.  Your Jewish friends have something that they may call the Passover, but it is not the Passover.  Christ is.  That's what Paul says.


The only sacrifice in the Passover is the lamb. The Passover itself is about remembering God's saving act in the Exodus with a meal.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

D. Engebretson

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2021, 07:57:23 AM »
Pastor Preus:
Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover. 
Me:
For us, maybe, “a” Passover. My Jewish friends have “The” Passover. And we have that one too, unless we deny our roots in that event.

St. Paul writes, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7b)  Christ has always been the Passover.  To reject Christ is to reject the Passover.  Your Jewish friends have something that they may call the Passover, but it is not the Passover.  Christ is.  That's what Paul says.


The only sacrifice in the Passover is the lamb. The Passover itself is about remembering God's saving act in the Exodus with a meal.

So for you the Passover only celebrates that one event and does not foreshadow the great sacrifice to come when the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

George Rahn

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2021, 08:19:46 AM »
It is the Passover for Judaism that the lamb’s sacrifice has validity.  The “passover” of Jesus is a whole different “animal.”  In Christ the Passover of Judaism has no validity.  It is Christ and his death on the cross that has “passover” significance unrelated to Judaism.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 08:21:46 AM by George Rahn »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2021, 04:59:26 PM »
Pastor Preus:
Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover. 
Me:
For us, maybe, “a” Passover. My Jewish friends have “The” Passover. And we have that one too, unless we deny our roots in that event.

St. Paul writes, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7b)  Christ has always been the Passover.  To reject Christ is to reject the Passover.  Your Jewish friends have something that they may call the Passover, but it is not the Passover.  Christ is.  That's what Paul says.


The only sacrifice in the Passover is the lamb. The Passover itself is about remembering God's saving act in the Exodus with a meal.

So for you the Passover only celebrates that one event and does not foreshadow the great sacrifice to come when the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world?


No, I'm saying that 1 Cor 5:7b is talking about Christ being the Passover Lamb for us; not that he replaces the Jewish Passover Festival or Meal. As I noted in an earlier note, the word, πάσχα, has four entries in BDAG. The contexts of the word determines which definition best fits. Especially with θύω = "to sacrifice," in 1 Cor 5:7b, like its use with πάσχα in Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 suggests that πάσχα might be better translated, "passover lamb" in 1 Cor 5:7. (The NRSV has "paschal lamb;" ESV & NIV have "Passover lamb.")


We don't know the details of the Passover/Unleavened Bread Festivals in Jesus' day. I've suggested that whatever it was, two separate trajectories came from that time: the Christians' Eucharist (which, as the Agape Feast, had been more like a potluck meal with the sharing of stories of Jesus and included the sacramental blessing of bread and wine, perhaps similarly to what happened in the Upper Room;) and the Jewish Seder beginning around the 5th century, which, somewhat, standardized the rituals and foods the family shared as they remembered God's saving acts in the Exodus.


Although a different topic, a similar thing happened with Scriptures. The Christians, at the beginning, adopted the LXX with the Apocrypha as their scriptures (while adding writings that later became the New Testament for them) and the Jews went with the Hebrew text as their scriptures to help distinguish the two religions and their sacred writings. Two separate religions were created; rather than seeing Christianity as another Jewish sect (i.e., Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and Christians;) although there were some Christians who continued to see their religion as Jewish, i.e., the Ebionites, later declared heretics.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2021, 05:04:13 PM »
It is the Passover for Judaism that the lamb’s sacrifice has validity.  The “passover” of Jesus is a whole different “animal.”  In Christ the Passover of Judaism has no validity.  It is Christ and his death on the cross that has “passover” significance unrelated to Judaism.


And yet, Exodus 12 is part of the Christians' Scriptures. It is Word of God for us. As some have mentioned before, much of the Old Testament presents a "type" of salvation that is fulfilled for us in Jesus. The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2021, 05:09:09 PM »
The problem with the high-minded and feel-good approach of modern Christians toward Judaism is that it can't withstand even mild theological scrutiny. It is nice. It is civil. It tends toward neighborliness and friendship. But Christians who take that stance end up denying large swaths of the NT or else declaring all truth to be purely subjective, which amounts to the same thing.   

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2021, 05:10:28 PM »
The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.

Brian, with due respect, this has it exactly reversed. It is actually the death of Jesus that gives the meaning to the previous types, not vice versa. It’s later in time, but not later in the mind of God.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2021, 06:57:56 PM »
The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.

Brian, with due respect, this has it exactly reversed. It is actually the death of Jesus that gives the meaning to the previous types, not vice versa. It’s later in time, but not later in the mind of God.
Exactly. The shadow has no substance of its own. The concrete reality does not conform to the shape of its shadow; the shadow, even when seen first, conforms to the shape of the concrete thing. Apart from Christ, all the OT rites are without meaning. They are signs that do not point to anything, recipes offered up as food.

George Rahn

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2021, 07:19:34 PM »
It is the Passover for Judaism that the lamb’s sacrifice has validity.  The “passover” of Jesus is a whole different “animal.”  In Christ the Passover of Judaism has no validity.  It is Christ and his death on the cross that has “passover” significance unrelated to Judaism.


And yet, Exodus 12 is part of the Christians' Scriptures. It is Word of God for us. As some have mentioned before, much of the Old Testament presents a "type" of salvation that is fulfilled for us in Jesus. The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.

As a Word of God for us as Christians then we must look at what Word it is.  Is it part of God's Word of Law or is it God's Word of the Gospel?  Does this Word save or condemn?  How does Christ bring the Law of God to fulfillment and then to silence?  How does Christ the lamb who was sacrificed for the sin of the world bring salvation?  Finally Lutherans also say something about God's Word of Law outside of Christ.  This must be discussed as well.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2021, 07:34:22 PM »
I believe it is germane to this discussion to note that many liturgical Christian traditions continue to observe the Feasts of the Circumcision (January 1) and the Presentation/Meeting of the Lord (February 2); both of which demonstrate Jesus' voluntary submission and obedience to the Law.

The Orthodox continue to have prayers on the eighth day following birth for the naming of the child and to celebrate "churching" on the 40th day.

From the Doxosticon of the Presentation:

Quote

Today in the Temple, Christ is brought as an infant.
Today, He who gave the Law to Moses comes under the Law himself...

« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 07:41:09 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
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Charles Austin

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2021, 12:02:33 AM »
Peter writes:
 But Christians who take that stance end up denying large swaths of the NT or else declaring all truth to be purely subjective, which amounts to the same thing.   
I ask:
So tell me how saying that the Passover of Exodus has validity denies "large swaths of the NT". Wouldn't minimizing the Passover as having been totally subsumed by something else be denying a good portion of the Hebrew Scriptures, that portion BTW, being also our scripture?
The Passover is the Passover.
The Meal of the Eucharist is the Meal.
Both are scriptural.
One looks back for parallels and foreshadowing and sees them.
The other looks forward and does not see connections.
So what? 
And Peter writes:
Apart from Christ, all the OT rites are without meaning.
I comment:
Again, we have the same can of worms uncapped by Pastor Preus, a strange and dangerous action leading to some potentially catastrophic conclusions, the weight of those catastrophes falling solely upon those whose faith in God, the God we believe is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ celebrates those "OT rites."
Why this need to invalidate the rites of God's covenant clearly described in our scriptures?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 12:11:07 AM by Charles Austin »
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2021, 12:26:49 AM »
Are we reliving the extremes between Jiudaizers and Marcionites?

Is there anything new under the sun?
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2021, 02:39:04 AM »
The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.

Brian, with due respect, this has it exactly reversed. It is actually the death of Jesus that gives the meaning to the previous types, not vice versa. It’s later in time, but not later in the mind of God.


For the Romans, without the Hebrew scriptures, Jesus' crucifixion was just an execution. For the Hebrews, like all of the first disciples were, who understood sacrifices for sin and guilt offerings, who had been celebrating Passover for centuries with the sacrifice of the Passover lamb; they could look at Jesus' death as something much more than just an execution. Without the Hebrew Scriptures, they didn't have the background to make sense of Jesus' sacrifice.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2021, 02:41:02 AM »
Are we reliving the extremes between Jiudaizers and Marcionites?
No.

Quote
Is there anything new under the sun?
All sorts of new life are springing up with longer periods of sunlight.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Pesach 2021
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2021, 07:48:34 AM »
There is no need to invalidate anything. Truth is what Is, not what any particular person recognizes or sees. Christ is the fulfillment of the OT rites. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether someone wants to keep kosher, or slaughter or bull, or participate in the Passover, or whatever, I have nothing but respect for that person's piety and dedication. I respect Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, you name it, when they live their faith honestly. I think such piety is a worldly virtue that far exceeds anything the scoffer or "non-practicing" member of any religion has to offer. The objection is not to Jewish people engaged in the rites of Judaism. The objection is to Christians saying those rites have validity apart from fulfillment in Christ.

I don't have a problem with some group wanting to rebuild Noah's Ark if it makes them happy. I have a problem with Christians saying that rebuilding Noah's ark might be a valid thing to do because of the impending flood. Saying so denies the promise. The ark served its purpose. It is fulfilled. There will never need to be another one. If people don't know that, their building of a big boat might be a harmless falsehood. But if Christians do it, there is a big problem. Similarly, a lamb slain at twilight? Great. I like lamb. A Christian saying an animal sacrifice according to OT law has validity today? Not so much.