Author Topic: Questions about Mary  (Read 6454 times)

Dave Benke

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2021, 03:33:38 PM »
How odd, Bishop! For when I was at seminary (I believe together with your brother, no?) not long after the ďlate great unpleasantnessĒ from whom did we learn the hermeneutics of the Confessions? Why, from that very article that Secker included in that splendid volume! We learned from Piepkorn. We studied him. You may think his approach was exorcised, but itís exactly what I was trained in after the split. Similarly, I devoured Conduct of the Service (still available then as an offset from the printshop in the book store) and marvelled at all I learned, and was even inspired to fork over the money for Profiles, at least the second volume (yes, they  were on the bookshelf of the bookstore) that I might learn more from this great teacher about our Church.

Again, can the whole thing not be placed under Paschal blood and left there?

P.S. I should add we learned our hermeneutics of the Scriptures from Dr. Franzmann: three hermeneutical circles. There was more continuity than discontinuity over all, I suspect. Which is not to diminish at all the points of very real disagreement, but they certainly didnít center around Dr. Piepkorn!

It has been placed under the Paschal blood and left there, Will. 

What I learned from knowing the men mentioned was not only theological acuity and facility, but an underlying generosity of spirit.  Which imbued that seminary when I was there, even under great duress, and propelled us out into our pastoral vocation.  That remains.

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2021, 03:40:53 PM »
Bishop, I feel certain I learned a certain generosity of spirit from teachers there, even though we were propelled from that place into places in our Synod under a could of suspicion. I learned it from Norman Nagel, from Horace Hummel, from Gerald Eickmann, from Daniel Pokorny, from Rev. Rossow, from Charles Knippel, from George Robert and so many more.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2021, 05:40:06 PM »
I actually featured quotes from Lutherís treatment of the Magnificat on my blog some months back. It is definitely one of my favorite writings of his. And for some reason, I always hear the actual text of the canticle with the music of Bachís glorious setting of the Magnificat: https://youtu.be/QQAWqqaUTHE


Bach's setting might be difficult to do with 30 people in the congregation and one piano player. :)


ELW has seven possibilities for the Magnificat.


1. p. 314-5 The setting in Evening Prayer with music by Russell Schutz-Widmer
2. #234 My Soul Proclaims the Greatness of the Lord; plainsong
3. #235 My Soul Proclaims the Greatness of the Lord; music by Bob More
4. #236 Magnificat; Taize
5. #251 My Soul Proclaims Your Greatness; words: With One Voice, based on Magnificat; tune: Kingsfold
6. #723 Canticle of the Turning; words, Rory Cooney based on Magnificat; tune: Star of County Down
7. #882 My Soul Does Magnify the Lord; words (based on on Magnificat) & music: Grayson Warren Brown


There's also the version by Martin Haugen in Holden Evening Prayer that didn't make it into the hymnal.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dave Benke

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2021, 08:51:28 AM »
I actually featured quotes from Lutherís treatment of the Magnificat on my blog some months back. It is definitely one of my favorite writings of his. And for some reason, I always hear the actual text of the canticle with the music of Bachís glorious setting of the Magnificat: https://youtu.be/QQAWqqaUTHE


Bach's setting might be difficult to do with 30 people in the congregation and one piano player. :)


ELW has seven possibilities for the Magnificat.


1. p. 314-5 The setting in Evening Prayer with music by Russell Schutz-Widmer
2. #234 My Soul Proclaims the Greatness of the Lord; plainsong
3. #235 My Soul Proclaims the Greatness of the Lord; music by Bob More
4. #236 Magnificat; Taize
5. #251 My Soul Proclaims Your Greatness; words: With One Voice, based on Magnificat; tune: Kingsfold
6. #723 Canticle of the Turning; words, Rory Cooney based on Magnificat; tune: Star of County Down
7. #882 My Soul Does Magnify the Lord; words (based on on Magnificat) & music: Grayson Warren Brown


There's also the version by Martin Haugen in Holden Evening Prayer that didn't make it into the hymnal.

We have done a version of Canticle of the Turning with a teenage African American young woman rapping the words.  Very strong.  "The world is about to turn."

Dave Benke

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2021, 01:28:29 PM »
I actually featured quotes from Lutherís treatment of the Magnificat on my blog some months back. It is definitely one of my favorite writings of his. And for some reason, I always hear the actual text of the canticle with the music of Bachís glorious setting of the Magnificat: https://youtu.be/QQAWqqaUTHE


Bach's setting might be difficult to do with 30 people in the congregation and one piano player. :)


ELW has seven possibilities for the Magnificat.


1. p. 314-5 The setting in Evening Prayer with music by Russell Schutz-Widmer
2. #234 My Soul Proclaims the Greatness of the Lord; plainsong
3. #235 My Soul Proclaims the Greatness of the Lord; music by Bob More
4. #236 Magnificat; Taize
5. #251 My Soul Proclaims Your Greatness; words: With One Voice, based on Magnificat; tune: Kingsfold
6. #723 Canticle of the Turning; words, Rory Cooney based on Magnificat; tune: Star of County Down
7. #882 My Soul Does Magnify the Lord; words (based on on Magnificat) & music: Grayson Warren Brown


There's also the version by Martin Haugen in Holden Evening Prayer that didn't make it into the hymnal.

We have done a version of Canticle of the Turning with a teenage African American young woman rapping the words.  Very strong.  "The world is about to turn."


You might like My Soul Doth Magnify the Lord which is more of a gospel style. (PDF attached)
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dave Benke

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2021, 05:03:14 PM »
I actually featured quotes from Lutherís treatment of the Magnificat on my blog some months back. It is definitely one of my favorite writings of his. And for some reason, I always hear the actual text of the canticle with the music of Bachís glorious setting of the Magnificat: https://youtu.be/QQAWqqaUTHE


Bach's setting might be difficult to do with 30 people in the congregation and one piano player. :)


ELW has seven possibilities for the Magnificat.


1. p. 314-5 The setting in Evening Prayer with music by Russell Schutz-Widmer
2. #234 My Soul Proclaims the Greatness of the Lord; plainsong
3. #235 My Soul Proclaims the Greatness of the Lord; music by Bob More
4. #236 Magnificat; Taize
5. #251 My Soul Proclaims Your Greatness; words: With One Voice, based on Magnificat; tune: Kingsfold
6. #723 Canticle of the Turning; words, Rory Cooney based on Magnificat; tune: Star of County Down
7. #882 My Soul Does Magnify the Lord; words (based on on Magnificat) & music: Grayson Warren Brown


There's also the version by Martin Haugen in Holden Evening Prayer that didn't make it into the hymnal.

We have done a version of Canticle of the Turning with a teenage African American young woman rapping the words.  Very strong.  "The world is about to turn."


You might like My Soul Doth Magnify the Lord which is more of a gospel style. (PDF attached)

I do like "My Soul Doth Magnify"!  We moved it over to a reggae beat.  I'm about to get a new synthesizer/music maker, and and we're going to re-engineer some of our beats - may move this one back to Gospel.  I have a real nice Al Jarreau Gospel Rock rhythm that suffice.

Dave Benke

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2021, 08:43:50 PM »
I do like "My Soul Doth Magnify"!  We moved it over to a reggae beat.  I'm about to get a new synthesizer/music maker, and and we're going to re-engineer some of our beats - may move this one back to Gospel.  I have a real nice Al Jarreau Gospel Rock rhythm that suffice.


I remember a good pianist we had who was surprised that we could change the styles of accompaniments for songs. (She was much more about reading the notes on the page. I tend to use fake music, but try reading notes for some classical and ragtime pieces to keep in practice. When I was a paid accompanist for a high school choir, the director wanted me to play the notes as written.)


Concerning Mary, an interesting study is to look at biblical and non-biblical references to her chronologically. Mark, the earliest gospel, and Paul, the earliest writings in the New Testament, say very little about her. Neither has any birth narratives. Matthew and Luke coming a generation later have birth narratives that involve Mary (Luke more than Matthew). While John doesn't have a birth narrative and never uses the name, "Mary," he has the "mother of our Lord," at the miracle in Cana (found only in John) and at the crucifixion, where she is not mentioned by other evangelists. The Gospel of James gives us the back story to Mary. It names her parents, Joachim and Anna. It talks about Mary's miraculous birth, (a bit like that of Isaac's). Mary was raised in the temple. It goes into the birth of Jesus with great detail, including a midwife. It includes a version of the Magi's visit and Herod's rage that sought to destroy all infants two years old and younger, which put John the Baptist at risk. He and his mother, Elizabeth, are hidden by a mountain that split open and they were guarded by an angel. His father, Zechariah, is murdered. He won't (or can't) reveal where his son is. Simeon (also in Luke) is selected to take Zechariah's place.


What I concluded many years ago when studying this, is that the tributes and importance of Mary grew over time from no mention of "Mary" nor "mother of our Lord" in Paul, the earliest NT writings, to Mark's brief mention of his family who think Jesus is out of his mind (3:21 - a phrase not used by Matthew or Luke). When his mother and family are mentioned in 3:31-32, they don't seem to be followers of Jesus.


John has the Jesus' mother standing at the cross and Jesus speaking to her (19:25-27). Luke, in Acts, makes it clear that Mary and Jesus' brothers were part of the disciples who devoted themselves to prayer (Acts 1:14). Then there is even further elevation the later writing of The Gospel of Thomas  (late 2nd century).


I'm not saying anything about what might have really happened historically, just noting the increased importance of Mary, the Mother of our Lord, in the writings over time.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 01:54:00 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2021, 09:40:45 PM »
The Gospel of Thomas gives us the back story to Mary. It names her parents, Joachim and Anna. It talks about Mary's miraculous birth, (a bit like that of Isaac's). Mary was raised in the temple. It goes into the birth of Jesus with great detail, including a midwife. It includes a version of the Magi's visit and Herod's rage that sought to destroy all infants two years old and younger, which put John the Baptist at risk. He and his mother, Elizabeth, are hidden by a mountain that split open and they were guarded by an angel. His father, Zechariah, is murdered. He won't (or can't) reveal where his son is. Simeon (also in Luke) is selected to take Zechariah's place.


I believe you are referring to The Protoevangelion of James.
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2021, 09:55:56 PM »
Our calendars are out of step by five weeks this year and it is impossible to avoid noticing that today is Good Friday for Western Christianity.

In the Orthodox Church we sang the Third Salutations to the Theotokos tonight.

The Fourth and Fifth Odes had richer layers of meaning because of this Good Friday intersection--and the awareness that the Theotokos stood faithfully by the Cross of her Son.

Quote
Ode Four. The Eirmos

He who sits in holy glory, on the throne of Divinity, on a swift cloud came Jesus the transcendent God, and by his undefiled hand has saved those who cry Out; Glory be to Your power, O Christ.

Most-holy Theotokos, save us.

In voices of song faithfully we rejoice all-laudable One.
Rejoice, rich mountain flowing with the milk of the Spirit.
Rejoice, lamp and golden jar containing the manna which sweetens the senses of the devout.

Most-holy Theotokos, save us.

Rejoice, mercy-seat of the world untainted Lady.
Rejoice, raising all from earth by grace.
Rejoice bridge that truly conveys from death to life all those who sing your praises.

Most-holy Theotokos, save us.

More exalted than the heavens, rejoice, you who carded earth's foundation painlessly in your womb. Rejoice, O sea shell who dyed with your own virgin blood the divine purple robe worn by the King of angelic hosts.

Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Lady, you truly gave birth to the divine Giver of the law who washes clean the lawlessness of all. O incomprehensible depth and ineffable height, Maiden unwedded, through whom we are deified.

Both now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

You have woven for the world a crown unwoven by human hands and we praise you saying: Rejoice, O Virgin, the fortress and citadel and protective wall and refuge of all.

Ode Five. The Eirmos.

Amazed was the universe by your divine glory. For while never experiencing marriage, you held, O Virgin, the God of all in your womb, and gave birth to an eternal Son who grants salvation to all who chant hymns of praise to you.

Most-holy Theotokos, save us.

Rejoice, for you carried in your womb the Way of life.
Rejoice, Bride of God, all-blameless Maiden, who saved the world from the flood of sin.
Rejoice, awe-inspiring message and report, habitation of the One who is Lord of all creation.

Most-holy Theotokos, save us.

The might and the fortress of the human race, O Undefiled.
Rejoice, holy place of glory, slayer of Hades, and bridal chamber of light.
Rejoice, delight of the angels.
Rejoice, helper of those who pray to you faithfully.

Most-holy Theotokos, save us.

Fiery chariot of God the Word and risen Son.
Rejoice, Lady, living paradise, which in its center contains the tree of life, the Lord, whose sweetness gives life to those who participate with faith although subject to decay.

Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Strengthened by your power, we faithfully cry out to you with faith: Rejoice, city of the Great King, about which glorious and remarkable things have been clearly declared. Rejoice, O unquarried mountain and unfathomable depth.

Both now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

Rejoice, O Undefiled dwelling of the Word, seashell that produces the divine pearl.
Rejoice, O Lady, exceedingly wonderful, who reconciles with God all those who bless you, the Theotokos, each time.

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Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Questions about Mary
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2021, 01:53:35 AM »
The Gospel of Thomas gives us the back story to Mary. It names her parents, Joachim and Anna. It talks about Mary's miraculous birth, (a bit like that of Isaac's). Mary was raised in the temple. It goes into the birth of Jesus with great detail, including a midwife. It includes a version of the Magi's visit and Herod's rage that sought to destroy all infants two years old and younger, which put John the Baptist at risk. He and his mother, Elizabeth, are hidden by a mountain that split open and they were guarded by an angel. His father, Zechariah, is murdered. He won't (or can't) reveal where his son is. Simeon (also in Luke) is selected to take Zechariah's place.


I believe you are referring to The Protoevangelion of James.


Oops. I'll correct it. It's also known as the Gospel of James and the Infancy Gospel of James.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]