Author Topic: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel  (Read 3036 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2021, 06:30:36 PM »
Brian, you think more damage has been done by those verses than any help they may offer? Perhaps reading them prescriptions instead of descriptions leads people astray, but that’s what real pastors are for— not ditching the verses they don’t like, but helping people apply them properly.


Yes, good pastors note that these verses were a later addition to the Gospel of Mark.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2021, 06:47:09 PM »
Mark 16:9-20 is most certainly part of the canonical scriptures and is to be to be treated as such. These verses may not have been written by the same author as the rest of Gospel named by long standing tradition "Mark." They probably were not. I agree with Prof. Voelz.


Did we not also inherit the Apocrypha as canonical scripture? Shouldn't they be treated as such?

Why not? It's fine for a majority of Christians.


I always try to buy Bibles that include it. One reason I seldom use NIV, ESV, NASB.


We can also wonder if Jerome did the church a disservice by changing to the Hebrew for the Old Testament after about 300 years of Christian use of the LXX as their scriptures. (The Eastern Church continues to use the LXX. However, one problem I've found is that there are not good translation, in my opinion, of the LXX. The Orthodox Study Bible (© 2008), is not really a new translation, but uses NKJV except where it differs from the LXX. A New English Translation of the Septuagint [NETS] (© 2007) is a new translation, but doesn't flow real well, and transliterates many of the names, e.g., "Dauid," so they are different than what we are used to. The Lexham English Septuagint (© 2019) is new to me and I haven't used it much, but what little I've used it, it seems less accurate than NETS, but it uses the more familiar names.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2021, 08:10:53 PM »


I always try to buy Bibles that include it. One reason I seldom use NIV, ESV, NASB.




Unless I am mistaken, there is available an ESV with apocrypha included, and an NIV version with a portion of the apocrypha.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Dana Lockhart

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2021, 12:52:53 AM »
I was blessed to take two classes with Clayton Croy in seminary. His book, "The Mutilation of Mark's Gospel" is compelling. After reading it and discussing the matter with him, I am convinced that the most logical, straightforward answer is that the original beginning and ending of Mark's Gospel were lost early in the history of their transcription.

Personally, I would go further than Dr. Croy and say that I find the theory that Mark's Gospel formed much of the source material of Matthew and Luke only sensible in light of the reality of a damaged Markan Gospel.

This "mutilated" Gospel became the source material for attempts to rework/complete the lost original, which also drew on other sources (including Q and potentially an Aramaic gospel attributed to Matthew) to form Matthew and Luke. Because the tendency seems to be to add and clarify rather than subtract and replace when it comes to Scripture, Mark was preserved in enough communities that it was never replaced by the two other synoptic Gospels and entered the canon in its current state.

But then again, as Dr. Croy said in class, "Scholars can build castles in the clouds: you don't have to live in them."

The same is true for parish pastors.



« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 12:57:20 AM by Dana Lockhart »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2021, 02:47:25 AM »


I always try to buy Bibles that include it. One reason I seldom use NIV, ESV, NASB.




Unless I am mistaken, there is available an ESV with apocrypha included, and an NIV version with a portion of the apocrypha.


I believe that if you find a NIV or ESV version with the Apocrypha, a publisher borrowed it from some other translation. One indication is that BibleGateway.net has no results when searching for an Apocrypha text in NIV and ESV.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2021, 01:11:36 PM »
CPH has published The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition with Notes, using the ESV translation of the Apocrypha. The "Preface to the ESV Apocrypha" notes:


Quote
This translation of the Apocryphal Books is not completely new. It draws, in fact, on the mainstream of classic translations extending of the last five centuries: and most recently, it takes the 1971 Revised Standard Version (RASV) Apocrypha as its starting point.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2021, 01:28:55 PM »
CPH has published The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition with Notes, using the ESV translation of the Apocrypha. The "Preface to the ESV Apocrypha" notes:


Quote
This translation of the Apocryphal Books is not completely new. It draws, in fact, on the mainstream of classic translations extending of the last five centuries: and most recently, it takes the 1971 Revised Standard Version (RASV) Apocrypha as its starting point.


Is the Apocrypha copyrighted by Crossway Bibles?


I found the answer on CPH webpage. https://www.cph.org/pdf/012065.pdf


Copyright © 2012 Concordia Publishing House
3558 S. Jefferson Ave., St. Louis, MO 63118-3968
1-800-325-3040 • www.cph.org

All rights reserved. Except as noted below, no part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of Concordia Publishing House.

The Apocrypha is adapted from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible and Apocrypha, copyright © 2009 by Oxford University Press, Inc., New York, NY 10016. All rights reserved. The Apocrypha text appearing in this publication is reproduced and published in cooperation between Oxford University Press and Concordia Publishing House. Unauthorized reproduction of this publication is prohibited.


The General Editor was Edward A. Engelbrecht. Perhaps he can tell us who actually translated the Apocrypha from the Greek. (It doesn't seem to be the folks who translated the ESV, but I could be mistaken.)

"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Weedon

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2021, 02:48:55 PM »
I use the Apocrypha in my KJV (and that’s my usual for Bible reading too). It’s definitely translated by the same folks who worked on the translation.

George Rahn

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2021, 04:25:24 PM »
The challenge before us is the peculiar ending to Mark’s Gospel at chapter 16, verse 8:  “And they said nothing to anyone for they were afraid.” (RSV)

If the disciples are not there and if the women (disciples) flee and no longer stay or speak to anyone, the general question is how will the message be transmitted to others that indeed Christ has been raised from the dead, as he had said and promised during His ministry?  Even the young man at the tomb reminds us of what Jesus had promised and that Galilee was the place at which He could be found.

The common presupposition is that no one remains to carry on the Christian mission because they all Jesus’ disciples and the women have fled in fear.   Then the fill-in-the-blanks begin from that point as to what happens next, if any thing. 

However, theoretically, two individuals do remain at the empty tomb.  The transmission of the message is not as bleak as the story seems to indicate. 1) The young man remains inside the empty tomb and 2) the one who is being addressed about these events, ie. you, the reader or listener.  You remain at the empty tomb.  So in fact the message of the Gospel for others transmitted to others remains a possibility and in fact becomes an actuality in that if you yourself are reading this today, the message has been transmitted successfully because you didn’t leave the tomb without mentioning to someone else that Christ has been raised.  You in fact are part of the file of continuing transmission. 

But what of the young man dressed in his white robe who announced the amazing fact that indeed the tomb was empty and that Jesus had been raised?  You too have heard that message.  Presumably since you, the reader/listener have not fled in terror, now cooler heads have prevailed.  It’s time for you to go to Galilee in obedience to Jesus’ command by way of the young man’s announcement not just to the women but to you as well. 

For it is in Galilee where you will see the risen Lord, as he had said.  The young man and you are the crucial keys which address whether the message gets around despite both the disciples’ and women's failure of being transmitters.

And so off you go with the promise that in your life the Lord meets you and in fact does meet you just as he has promised.  You are the one who will want to put this all together as you try to express to others what the living Christ does for you in your life.  What does Jesus really mean for you? 

Since “death no longer has dominion over Him (Jesus)” his encounter of you in His word for you drives you forward with the strength of his promises for you.  Jesus will never abandon you now because He is always for you and never against you (Romans 8).  He is always with you as he promised to be (Matthew 28:20b).

Going to Galilee means to shed all that prevents you from receiving his promises.  Going to Galilee means to leave the empty tomb not in fear but in anticipation of seeing the Lord who is always on your side and never against you.  Galilee is the place where Jesus always did his ministry of teaching, healing, comforting, forgiving, showing mercy and even raising the dead.  Galilee is your life as you see Jesus just as he told you.

From my place in Galilee to your place, I can assure you through my own testimony of what God has done in my life that God will do so for yours, similarly.  His mercy and forgiveness are for real.  It testifies that He has told you that He will be there.  He has promised.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 04:40:24 PM by George Rahn »

peter_speckhard

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2021, 05:48:59 PM »
I think the danger of saying “going to Galilee” means shedding whatever prevents you from receiving His promises is that people hear that and think, “Boy, I didn’t get that at all when I read it. I must be a spiritual dunce. Either that or the Bible is a big code that I don’t know.” So it preaches well, I’m not arguing against the idea. I just think it has to be presented with that danger clearly in mind. How can we today do the equivalent of going to Galilee is a slightly different question than what does it mean to go to Galilee.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2021, 02:02:08 AM »


However, theoretically, two individuals do remain at the empty tomb.  The transmission of the message is not as bleak as the story seems to indicate. 1) The young man remains inside the empty tomb and 2) the one who is being addressed about these events, ie. you, the reader or listener.  You remain at the empty tomb.  So in fact the message of the Gospel for others transmitted to others remains a possibility and in fact becomes an actuality in that if you yourself are reading this today, the message has been transmitted successfully because you didn’t leave the tomb without mentioning to someone else that Christ has been raised.  You in fact are part of the file of continuing transmission.
 

Note: νεανίσκος, the word for “young man” who is dressed in white (16:5), is the same word used for the “young man” in the garden who is wearing only in linen cloth until he flees naked (14:51-52). These are the only two instances of this word in Mark.


Quote
But what of the young man dressed in his white robe who announced the amazing fact that indeed the tomb was empty and that Jesus had been raised?  You too have heard that message.  Presumably since you, the reader/listener have not fled in terror, now cooler heads have prevailed.  It’s time for you to go to Galilee in obedience to Jesus’ command by way of the young man’s announcement not just to the women but to you as well. 

An interesting question: Who is Mark written for? Is he writing an evangelical tract to convince unbelieving readers about the reality of Christ and the resurrection? Is he writing to people who already know about Jesus and believe the resurrection? If so, then he isn’t trying to convince them that Jesus rose from the dead. If we assume that Mark is writing to believers, then we need to ask: “What is Mark trying to say to these believers (and to us) with the way he ends the narrative?”

I also like the thought that the Gospel of Mark is like some parables that leave the conclusion to the hearers. Does the barren fig tree bear fruit after the gardener spends a year caring for it (Luke 13:6-9)? Does the older brother join the party (Luke 15:11-32)? The unstated conclusion then poses the question to the hearers. “Will you bear fruit?” “Are you willing to join the party?” Or, at the end of Mark, “Are you willing to go and tell others about Jesus being raised?” It seems clear that the gospel cannot end at v. 8. Especially, if it was written for believers, they know that the story didn't end with silence.

Quote
For it is in Galilee where you will see the risen Lord, as he had said.  The young man and you are the crucial keys which address whether the message gets around despite both the disciples’ and women's failure of being transmitters.

Why Galilee? My hunch is that after the disciples ran away, they would have gone back to their homes. It is likely that the territory of Galilee was where most of them were from. (Mark tells us that about five of them.) So, before they get home, Jesus is already there! Jesus doesn’t follow them there, but goes before them! The place they will see the risen Jesus is back at home – perhaps, we might even say, in the ordinary stuff of life.
 
Jesus is going to keep his promises to his disciples who have failed him – and even to Peter who has denied him. That is a message that I think Mark’s readers needed to hear.

Mark tells them that Jesus goes ahead of them – through the trials, sufferings, and death. Jesus goes ahead of them to the resurrection from the dead. Even if they have failed Jesus, Jesus will not fail them.

That's a message Mark's readers needed to hear. They were in the midst of the Jewish-Roman war - a war that brought the destruction of the Temple and mass suicides on Masada. There were probably many believers who were failures at following Jesus - like the first disciples. Jesus will not fail them. He goes before them - even as they are running away from him.
 
This may also be a message that our pew-sitters need to hear – not just in reference to their own sufferings, deaths, and resurrections; but also about going back home after the Easter celebration. At home there may be piles of dirty dishes, unmade beds; a yard or garden that needs tending, a house that needs cleaning; cars that need washing; spring shopping that needs doing; and preparations for a great crowd of people coming for dinner.
 
It can be easy to “see” the risen Christ in a packed Easter Sunday worship service, or perhaps even in a sunrise or the spring flowers blooming; but where is the risen Jesus when the people return home – to the drudgery of the same old things? The risen Christ has gone there ahead of them. They will see him. They will have opportunities to share the news.

"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2021, 10:50:38 AM »
The ESV Apocrypha was prepared by David daSilva, Dan McCartney, and Bernard Taylor. Their work was then edited by David Aiken. The team worked from the 1971 RSV Apocrypha and for additional books from the 1977 expanded Apocrypha. The whole was published by Oxford University Press with the ESV Bible. I believe it happened this way because Oxford University Press owns the rights to the RSV. The chief audience for the publication would be Anglicans.
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John_Hannah

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2021, 11:55:44 AM »

Note: νεανίσκος, the word for “young man” who is dressed in white (16:5), is the same word used for the “young man” in the garden who is wearing only in linen cloth until he flees naked (14:51-52). These are the only two instances of this word in Mark.


One interpretation of these two (connected?) passages is that the young man represents all the baptized. As Jesus is dying the young man runs away leaving his σινδων behind. σινδων is normally the word used for a burial garment. We are buried with Jesus but trade the burial garment for the white robe of the baptized who are raised with him. Such an interpretation (dying/rising) is consonant with Romans 6 and the νεανίσκος with the new born infants of I Peter 2. It is perfect for an Easter Vigil where baptisms are administered.

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peterm

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2021, 03:08:44 PM »
I've always been intrigued by two things in the Gospel ending in question.

 The tomb is open and already empty.  The resurrected Christ is on the loose in the world, two things stand out right away (for me anyway)

God has burst whatever chains, or boxes, or definitions we care to put on Him even death itself. ( there is IMO a wilder edge to this resurrection narrative which leads me to ponder what God is up to since he is running loose and not defined in a neat and tidy way.

"Go to Galilee and there you will see him as he said..."  Where and how do we see Jesus?  He has promised we will.  Can we see  him?
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Weedon

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Re: Easter and the End of Mark's Gospel
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2021, 03:25:38 PM »
The Markan Gospel is THE historic reading for Easter morning in the Western Church. I am struck always by two things, but they’re different from Pr. Morlock’s.

1. The absence of any encounter with the risen Christ in that reading; instead all they’re left with is sort of the same as what we get. Some dude got up in white telling the good news that He is risen as He said!

2. The ambiguity of the ending. Did they say anything? Will we? Will fear overcome? Or will the joy and wonder of the news overcome?

Well, and add in the third:

3. The women’s worry about the stone. And God had already seen to it. Yet they worried. So do we. Over a thousand and one things that simply don’t matter once it sinks into our bones: “He is risen as He said.”

Well, and add in the fourth:

4. Yes, to Pr. Morlockk’s Galilee. Go meet Him where He has promised to be for you. For them, Galilee (though I love that He couldn’t seem to wait for that; too much joy to hold off for the journey and so the Jerusalem appearances too); for us, the Supper.