Author Topic: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.  (Read 9634 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« on: March 10, 2021, 09:44:57 AM »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2021, 10:27:57 AM »

An article about the introduction of the word homosexuals in the Bible ... and that it was a mistake.

https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/?fbclid=IwAR2x_M-2oqervqPbbmd-iQloUTQ4ZavCg-lTkNjdoCkt0PUE5wdYC_GKr8M#.YEjapaJHbmr
I think the article makes a basic error in thinking of homosexual as something a person IS rather than same-sex attraction as something that affects them. God is indeed okay with gays in the sense that Christ died for same-sex attracted people just like everyone else. That in no way implies that a romantic/erotic relationship between people of the same sex is permissible.

Male and female are Biblical categories of creation. Gay and straight are not.   

jebutler

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2021, 11:21:16 AM »

An article about the introduction of the word homosexuals in the Bible ... and that it was a mistake.

https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/?fbclid=IwAR2x_M-2oqervqPbbmd-iQloUTQ4ZavCg-lTkNjdoCkt0PUE5wdYC_GKr8M#.YEjapaJHbmr

I like this quote:

Since their publication some 40 years ago, we have seen the largest amount of teen and young adult suicide in the history of the world. (emphasis mine)

Does he really have statistics from the beginning of time to prove this? Does he know the rate of teen and adult suicide in the Roman Empire? Medieval Europe? China? India?

I doubt he even has information from 100 years ago in America. But he just knows it's the worst in the history of the world!!

The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

Dan Fienen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2021, 12:03:32 PM »

An article about the introduction of the word homosexuals in the Bible ... and that it was a mistake.

https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/?fbclid=IwAR2x_M-2oqervqPbbmd-iQloUTQ4ZavCg-lTkNjdoCkt0PUE5wdYC_GKr8M#.YEjapaJHbmr

I like this quote:

Since their publication some 40 years ago, we have seen the largest amount of teen and young adult suicide in the history of the world. (emphasis mine)

Does he really have statistics from the beginning of time to prove this? Does he know the rate of teen and adult suicide in the Roman Empire? Medieval Europe? China? India?

I doubt he even has information from 100 years ago in America. But he just knows it's the worst in the history of the world!!
Not only is this historic claim unsubstantiated, neither is causality established. This could well be an example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. There could well be many other causes for an increase in suicide.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Tom Eckstein

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2021, 12:06:02 PM »

An article about the introduction of the word homosexuals in the Bible ... and that it was a mistake.

https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/?fbclid=IwAR2x_M-2oqervqPbbmd-iQloUTQ4ZavCg-lTkNjdoCkt0PUE5wdYC_GKr8M#.YEjapaJHbmr

The word "homosexual" means different things to different people.  Some use the word "homosexual" to define those who affirm same-sex desire and behavior.  Others use the word "homosexual" to define those who simply HAVE same-sex attraction.  In the second case, it is indeed possible for a person to be a "homosexual Christian" if this means that they HAVE same-sex attraction but agree with God that same-sex behavior is sinful in all circumstances.  The pertitnent Greek passages in the NT describe same-sex BEHAVIOR and are not interested in the modern notion of "orientation" (although the ancient world did know of people who were same-sex attracted).

Having said all that, I think it is a mistake to speak in terms of "heterosexuality" versus "homosexuality" as though the former is normal and and the latter is abnormal - because Scripture does not work with these categories.

Instead, Scripture deals with sexuality being "very good" in terms of sexual behavior between a man and a woman within marriage versus every other kind of sexual behavior (heterosexual or homosexual) being sinful or "abnormal" based on God's original intent in creation.  The problem with using the categories of "heterosexual" versus "homosexual" is that we have fallen into the trap of thinking that heterosexual behavior outside of marriage is not quite as sinful as homosexual behavior because heterosexual behavior is "normal."  But this is a worldly way of viewing sexuality, and is not biblical.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 12:08:23 PM by Tom Eckstein »
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2021, 01:12:09 PM »
I think his essay suggest that our discussions about homosexuality would be quite different today if the RSV and subsequent translations had used "sexual perverts" in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy rather than "homosexuals."


However, DBAG 3rd edition includes these comments on ἀρσενοκοίτης: "(on the impropriety of RSV's 'homosexuals' [altered to 'sodomites' NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, '86, 187-91; cp. Dwright, ibid. 41, '87, 396-98; REB's rendering of μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται w. the single term 'sexual pervert' is lexically unacceptable)"


The only gloss that BDAG suggests for ἀρσενοκοίτης is "pederast".


That is the understanding Luther had when he translated it with die Knabenschänder.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 03:27:55 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2021, 01:30:20 PM »
I think his essay suggest that our discussions about homosexuality would be quite different today if the RSV and subsequent translations had used "sexual perverts" in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy rather than "homosexuals."


However, DBAG 3rd edition includes these comments on ἀρσενοκοίτης: "(on the impropriety of RSV's 'homosexuals' [altered to 'sodomites' NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, '86, 187-91; cp. Dwright, ibid. 41, '87, 396-98; REB's rendering of μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται w. the single term 'sexual pervert' is lexically unacceptable)"


The only gloss that DBAG suggests for ἀρσενοκοίτης is "pederast".


That is the understanding Luther had when he translated it with die Knabenschänder.
At issue, though, is what is meant by perverted. Erotic attraction for a person of the same sex is indeed a perversion of the purpose and nature of sex. Why is someone who desires to expose himself to children a sexual pervert? What is perverted about adult attraction to young people? Is God okay with such people? They certainly exist and always have, and in some cultures have been considered normal. And they certainly experience marginalization. And someone's desire to expose himself has the ultimate "I was born that way" excuse, because he was indeed born naked. If someone came to you as a pastor and said he experienced profound erotic attraction to children, what would you tell him?

John_Hannah

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2021, 01:33:28 PM »
I think his essay suggest that our discussions about homosexuality would be quite different today if the RSV and subsequent translations had used "sexual perverts" in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy rather than "homosexuals."


However, DBAG 3rd edition includes these comments on ἀρσενοκοίτης: "(on the impropriety of RSV's 'homosexuals' [altered to 'sodomites' NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, '86, 187-91; cp. Dwright, ibid. 41, '87, 396-98; REB's rendering of μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται w. the single term 'sexual pervert' is lexically unacceptable)"


The only gloss that DBAG suggests for ἀρσενοκοίτης is "pederast".


That is the understanding Luther had when he translated it with die Knabenschänder.

"DBAG?"

Is it now Danker, Bauer, Arndt, & Gingrich? I have always used BDAG.
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2021, 03:28:18 PM »
I think his essay suggest that our discussions about homosexuality would be quite different today if the RSV and subsequent translations had used "sexual perverts" in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy rather than "homosexuals."


However, DBAG 3rd edition includes these comments on ἀρσενοκοίτης: "(on the impropriety of RSV's 'homosexuals' [altered to 'sodomites' NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, '86, 187-91; cp. Dwright, ibid. 41, '87, 396-98; REB's rendering of μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται w. the single term 'sexual pervert' is lexically unacceptable)"


The only gloss that DBAG suggests for ἀρσενοκοίτης is "pederast".


That is the understanding Luther had when he translated it with die Knabenschänder.

"DBAG?"

Is it now Danker, Bauer, Arndt, & Gingrich? I have always used BDAG.


Post has been corrected.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

David Garner

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2021, 03:55:37 PM »
There are so many errors in reasoning in that article it is hard to untangle them all.  The worst, though, is presuming that because his Church approaches gays that way, this means all churches do, and further presuming that the opposite of treating homoxexuals as dirty sinful people to be scorned and avoided is to treat their attraction as normal and properly ordered and God-pleasing.

I have sexual attractions that are not God-pleasing too. I'm not demanding anyone celebrate them and join me in affirming them as proper and God-pleasing.  Even if I managed to get the Church to do so, my wife is a bit of a tougher sell.  So I do what Christians -- gay and straight -- have always done.  I confess them, I repent of them, and I strive to avoid them.  I fail, often.  Imagine if I didn't bother trying.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2021, 04:41:56 PM »
There are so many errors in reasoning in that article it is hard to untangle them all.  The worst, though, is presuming that because his Church approaches gays that way, this means all churches do, and further presuming that the opposite of treating homoxexuals as dirty sinful people to be scorned and avoided is to treat their attraction as normal and properly ordered and God-pleasing.

I have sexual attractions that are not God-pleasing too. I'm not demanding anyone celebrate them and join me in affirming them as proper and God-pleasing.  Even if I managed to get the Church to do so, my wife is a bit of a tougher sell.  So I do what Christians -- gay and straight -- have always done.  I confess them, I repent of them, and I strive to avoid them.  I fail, often.  Imagine if I didn't bother trying.

The right assumption it makes is that the translation of 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy has been culturally bound through the ages. It wasn't about "homosexuals" until 1948.


Yes, there are those who treat homosexuals as "dirty sinful people to be scorned and avoided" even those who are committed to celibacy. The opposite is to treat them as children of God, loved by the Savior, equal members in the family of God. They, like all of us, will commit sins. I believe that Paul's advice that it is better to marry than be promiscuous is equally applicable to homosexuals as heterosexuals. I recall reading something in Luther that argued that marriage was a curb against promiscuity, too.


I don't claim to understand where sexual desires come from. I don't understand why I'm attracted to some women and not others. I don't understand why some men are attracted to other men rather than women. The same with women. I don't understand why I'm right handed and other people prefer their left hands. We don't understand preferences, but we know that they exist.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 04:54:15 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Weedon

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2021, 04:44:33 PM »
Wait a minute, Brian, you fault the version of the Bible when the language DOESN’T update with current usage often enough; now you’re faulting it when it DID update. Makes no sense, my friend. By the way, KJV still does the job:

Nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind....
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 04:48:06 PM by Weedon »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2021, 04:59:32 PM »
Wait a minute, Brian, you fault the version of the Bible when the language DOESN’T update with current usage often enough; now you’re faulting it when it DID update. Makes no sense, my friend. By the way, KJV still does the job:

Nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind....


I'm pretty sure that none of the married homosexuals I know would say that they are abusing themselves with mankind.


Yes, the language of the Bible needs to be updated as English changes. The essay suggests that the change to "homosexuals" in 1948 changed the meaning of the Bible from men who abused boys to homosexuals in general.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

David Garner

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2021, 05:00:21 PM »
The right assumption it makes is that the translation of 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy has been culturally bound through the ages. It wasn't about "homosexuals" until 1948.

Are you suggesting the Church never cared much about homosexuality until 1948?
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Richard Johnson

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2021, 10:26:09 PM »

An article about the introduction of the word homosexuals in the Bible ... and that it was a mistake.

https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/?fbclid=IwAR2x_M-2oqervqPbbmd-iQloUTQ4ZavCg-lTkNjdoCkt0PUE5wdYC_GKr8M#.YEjapaJHbmr

I like this quote:

Since their publication some 40 years ago, we have seen the largest amount of teen and young adult suicide in the history of the world. (emphasis mine)

Does he really have statistics from the beginning of time to prove this? Does he know the rate of teen and adult suicide in the Roman Empire? Medieval Europe? China? India?

I doubt he even has information from 100 years ago in America. But he just knows it's the worst in the history of the world!!

Details, details.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS