Author Topic: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.  (Read 6452 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2021, 06:01:53 PM »
They have a responsibility to teach, which they cannot do with someone who insists on keeping an open mind about the subject matter.

Tom Eckstein

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #91 on: March 13, 2021, 06:05:11 PM »
God brought one wife to Adam. That is the template for marriage. Polygamy came later. After the fall into sin a lot of things happened. God said they ought not have a king, then gave them one anyway, for example, and used the resulting kinship as a type of Christ.

Your line of reasoning falters because it is biblicistic and relativistic at the same time. You don’t understand or apply the relationship between the written and Incarnate Word. You just study ancient texts a lot and offer glib contradictions.


I don't see contradictions. Polygyny came about when there were more women to possess. God formed one woman from Adam's side. There wouldn't ben enough left of Adam had God formed as many women as Solomon "possessed."


You've made up your mind as to what Scriptures will say and make sure it fits into your box. I try to let scripture speak for itself without imposing boxes around it.
Agreed. Even when it is fulfilled and definitely interpret by the Author, you still keep an open mind. You know nothing because you can’t make up your mind.


Yup. An open mind allows God to continue to teach us. Scriptures quite often talk about people with "stiff necks" and "hard hearts". As Lowe & Nida say about πωρόω and its use in the NT: "to cause someone to be completely unwilling to learn and to accept new information" (Mk 6:52; 8:17; Jl 12:40; Ro 11:7; 2C 3:14) and πώρωσις: "stubborn unwillingness to learn" (Mk 3:5; Ro 11:25; Ep 4:18). This is not presented as a good trait for believers.

Brian, see Romans 12:1-2.   God does NOT want us to be open to anything and everything - including the false teaching you espouse.  Our minds are to be CLOSED to the lies of the world and OPEN to the Truth of God - and regarding what marriage is, Jesus' interpretation of Genesis in Matthew 19:1ff makes it clear that marriage is for ONE man and ONE woman, and this is so important to God that He even speaks of His relationship with His people in terms of MONOGAMY!!


In Romans 12:2: μεταμορφοῦσθε - 2 person, plural, present, imperative, passive


The present tense indicates that this transformation is ongoing or repeated. Christians are not transformed once and that's the end of it. We live our lives constantly being transformed.


The passive voice indicates that the transformation is something that happens to us. It happens to us through the "renewal of our minds." If one is closed minded, renewal and transformation cannot happen.

Good try, Brian.  But you totally missed my point.

I don't deny that we continue to learn our entire lives.  But the point of Romans 12:1-2 and is that we should always be OPEN to the Truth of God and always be CLOSED to the lies of the world.  As Paul says:  καὶ μὴ συνσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ, ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθε τῇ ἀνακαινώσει τοῦ νοός, εἰς τὸ δοκιμάζειν ὑμᾶς τί τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ εὐάρεστον καὶ τέλειον.   But if you had your way, we would never be sure about God's will because we would always have to be open to other possibilities.  In fact, in your way of looking at things, how does one even tell the difference between τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ and τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ so that one can be closed to the former and open to the latter?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 06:10:56 PM by Tom Eckstein »
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2021, 06:08:13 PM »
Those are rather harsh, judgmental, condemning words, Peter.
Directed against another member of this forum, and someone whom I assume you have never actually met face-to-face.
Anybody see anything wrong with that?
Once again, the discussion takes to turn the place where it becomes more important Who and what ideas we exclude rather than who and what ideas we might discuss.  It seems as if your faith requires such a hard certainty in so many things, that I sometimes wonder whether it is Faith at all.
If I described  biblical conservatives here in a certain way, I would be roundly criticized. Yet you, Peter, and others throw bricks at your view of what progressives are week after week.

No, I think Rev. Speckhard has pretty much pegged Rev. Stoffregen perfectly.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2021, 06:13:59 PM »
Good try, Brian.  But you totally missed my point.


Wouldn't be the first time, and probably not the last.

Quote
I don't deny that we continue to learn our entire lives.  But the point of Romans 12:1-2 and is that we should always be OPEN to the Truth of God and always be CLOSED to the lies of the world.  As Paul says:  καὶ μὴ συνσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ, ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθε τῇ ἀνακαινώσει τοῦ νοός, εἰς τὸ δοκιμάζειν ὑμᾶς τί τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ εὐάρεστον καὶ τέλειον.   But if you had your way, we would never be sure about God's will because we would always have to be open to other possibilities.


I think I've been pretty clear about the will of God: we are to love God and to love our neighbors. The love for neighbors can be described: "as we love ourselves" (which Jesus quoted from the Jewish scriptures); and it can also be described: "as Christ has loved us," which was part of the new commandment given in John 13. As Jesus loved us includes love for enemies. We are likely to disagree about what that love looks like.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Tom Eckstein

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #94 on: March 13, 2021, 06:25:10 PM »
Good try, Brian.  But you totally missed my point.


Wouldn't be the first time, and probably not the last.

Quote
I don't deny that we continue to learn our entire lives.  But the point of Romans 12:1-2 and is that we should always be OPEN to the Truth of God and always be CLOSED to the lies of the world.  As Paul says:  καὶ μὴ συνσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ, ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθε τῇ ἀνακαινώσει τοῦ νοός, εἰς τὸ δοκιμάζειν ὑμᾶς τί τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ εὐάρεστον καὶ τέλειον.   But if you had your way, we would never be sure about God's will because we would always have to be open to other possibilities.


I think I've been pretty clear about the will of God: we are to love God and to love our neighbors. The love for neighbors can be described: "as we love ourselves" (which Jesus quoted from the Jewish scriptures); and it can also be described: "as Christ has loved us," which was part of the new commandment given in John 13. As Jesus loved us includes love for enemies. We are likely to disagree about what that love looks like.

I'm sure we WILL disagree on what "love looks like" because you have no way of being open to objective Truth so that you CAN know what love should look like.
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George Rahn

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #95 on: March 13, 2021, 07:06:22 PM »
So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.


Mark 10 is clearly referencing the Roman rules for marriage. Jewish law did not allow a wife to divorce her husband, but Mark 10:12 assumes that a wife could divorce her husband. Monogamy came into the church through Roman marriage rules, not Jewish ones. Note well, I'm not arguing that monogamy is a bad thing. My wife and I are starting to plan our 50th wedding anniversary this summer. (We've had both our shots. We're waiting for our sons and other relatives to get theirs so we might have a gathering of the extended family.) I am saying that I don't believe that monogamy originated from Scriptures.


Is there anything that humans can do with God's okay? I suspect that even our desire to be Christians is fraught with selfish desires: The benefits God gives us through faith. Similarly, our acts of repentance will be tainted with sin.

Mark 10?  No.  What Jesus quotes is straight out of Genesis in terms of marriage.  I don’t see how this is Roman law.   Btw, congrats on the longevity with your own marriage.  50 years is truly a milestone.


Deuteronomy 21:15 assumes that some men will have two wives. It is never prohibited in the Torah. Rather, it is assumed that it will happen.

However Deuteronomy has Moses as the one who speaks what God told him.  God doesn’t speak the law himself.  Throughout Deuteronomy Moses is the speaker and not God.  So the issue about all kinds of types of “marriages” is about human-made constructs.  God’s original intention in Genesis 2 still stands as the only order/estate.  Not polygamy, et.al.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2021, 01:43:44 PM »
So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.


Mark 10 is clearly referencing the Roman rules for marriage. Jewish law did not allow a wife to divorce her husband, but Mark 10:12 assumes that a wife could divorce her husband. Monogamy came into the church through Roman marriage rules, not Jewish ones. Note well, I'm not arguing that monogamy is a bad thing. My wife and I are starting to plan our 50th wedding anniversary this summer. (We've had both our shots. We're waiting for our sons and other relatives to get theirs so we might have a gathering of the extended family.) I am saying that I don't believe that monogamy originated from Scriptures.


Is there anything that humans can do with God's okay? I suspect that even our desire to be Christians is fraught with selfish desires: The benefits God gives us through faith. Similarly, our acts of repentance will be tainted with sin.

Mark 10?  No.  What Jesus quotes is straight out of Genesis in terms of marriage.  I don’t see how this is Roman law.   Btw, congrats on the longevity with your own marriage.  50 years is truly a milestone.


Deuteronomy 21:15 assumes that some men will have two wives. It is never prohibited in the Torah. Rather, it is assumed that it will happen.

However Deuteronomy has Moses as the one who speaks what God told him.  God doesn’t speak the law himself.  Throughout Deuteronomy Moses is the speaker and not God.  So the issue about all kinds of types of “marriages” is about human-made constructs.  God’s original intention in Genesis 2 still stands as the only order/estate.  Not polygamy, et.al.


I believe that the only times a group of humans heard God (the Father) speak directly was at Jesus' baptism and transfiguration. Otherwise, God's words always came through some means: words on a wall; words on tablets of stone, the mouths of Moses and the prophets, and certainly through the words and deeds of Jesus, (but accounts of his words and deeds come to us through human agents).

When we confess that the Bible is the Word of God; we don't make distinctions in regards of the authors of those writings. Some of us can question the Pauline authorship of some epistles - and still consider them the Word of God. We will talk about different sources of the Torah (JEDP) and the Gospels (Mark, Q, M, L) - and still consider them the Word of God. It's likely, in the opinion of many, that Moses did not write down the words of Deuteronomy. (He certainly didn't write the words after his death.) Yet, we approach the words as the Word of God. As Mark Allan Powell says about our (at least the ELCA's) understanding of "the Bible is the word of God:" "We do not mean, 'the Bible is a book that contains no errors or contradictions,' We mean, 'the Bible is the book that tells us what God wants to say to us.' That puts a different spin on things." ("How Can Lutheran Insights Open Up the bible?" in Opening the Book of Faith: Lutheran Insights for Bible Study, p. 22.)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 01:45:40 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2021, 01:50:02 PM »

However Deuteronomy has Moses as the one who speaks what God told him.  God doesn’t speak the law himself.  Throughout Deuteronomy Moses is the speaker and not God.  So the issue about all kinds of types of “marriages” is about human-made constructs.  God’s original intention in Genesis 2 still stands as the only order/estate.  Not polygamy, et.al.


How could there be polygyny in Genesis 2 when there was only one woman for Adam? If we expand your logic, wouldn't it imply that God has created one woman for each man? Would that mean that divorces happen because the man didn't find the woman God had created for him?


That's not a road that I want to go down. I suspect that a vast majority, if not all weddings, occur because the couple believe that the other is the right one - the God-given partner.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Rahn

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2021, 04:15:51 PM »
So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.


Mark 10 is clearly referencing the Roman rules for marriage. Jewish law did not allow a wife to divorce her husband, but Mark 10:12 assumes that a wife could divorce her husband. Monogamy came into the church through Roman marriage rules, not Jewish ones. Note well, I'm not arguing that monogamy is a bad thing. My wife and I are starting to plan our 50th wedding anniversary this summer. (We've had both our shots. We're waiting for our sons and other relatives to get theirs so we might have a gathering of the extended family.) I am saying that I don't believe that monogamy originated from Scriptures.


Is there anything that humans can do with God's okay? I suspect that even our desire to be Christians is fraught with selfish desires: The benefits God gives us through faith. Similarly, our acts of repentance will be tainted with sin.

Mark 10?  No.  What Jesus quotes is straight out of Genesis in terms of marriage.  I don’t see how this is Roman law.   Btw, congrats on the longevity with your own marriage.  50 years is truly a milestone.


Deuteronomy 21:15 assumes that some men will have two wives. It is never prohibited in the Torah. Rather, it is assumed that it will happen.

However Deuteronomy has Moses as the one who speaks what God told him.  God doesn’t speak the law himself.  Throughout Deuteronomy Moses is the speaker and not God.  So the issue about all kinds of types of “marriages” is about human-made constructs.  God’s original intention in Genesis 2 still stands as the only order/estate.  Not polygamy, et.al.


I believe that the only times a group of humans heard God (the Father) speak directly was at Jesus' baptism and transfiguration. Otherwise, God's words always came through some means: words on a wall; words on tablets of stone, the mouths of Moses and the prophets, and certainly through the words and deeds of Jesus, (but accounts of his words and deeds come to us through human agents).

When we confess that the Bible is the Word of God; we don't make distinctions in regards of the authors of those writings. Some of us can question the Pauline authorship of some epistles - and still consider them the Word of God. We will talk about different sources of the Torah (JEDP) and the Gospels (Mark, Q, M, L) - and still consider them the Word of God. It's likely, in the opinion of many, that Moses did not write down the words of Deuteronomy. (He certainly didn't write the words after his death.) Yet, we approach the words as the Word of God. As Mark Allan Powell says about our (at least the ELCA's) understanding of "the Bible is the word of God:" "We do not mean, 'the Bible is a book that contains no errors or contradictions,' We mean, 'the Bible is the book that tells us what God wants to say to us.' That puts a different spin on things." ("How Can Lutheran Insights Open Up the bible?" in Opening the Book of Faith: Lutheran Insights for Bible Study, p. 22.)

Jesus is God.  What God speaks is truth.  Mark 10 reference above is Jesus speaking directly not as a mediator (or, we would be confessing that Jesus was less than fully God/fully human)

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #99 on: March 15, 2021, 03:04:35 AM »
Jesus is God.  What God speaks is truth.  Mark 10 reference above is Jesus speaking directly not as a mediator (or, we would be confessing that Jesus was less than fully God/fully human)


Mark 10 is a recollection and probably a translation of Jesus Aramaic words. Aramaic was the common language of the Jewish people. Hebrew was the worship language. Greek was the language of commerce throughout the lands conquered by Alexander the Great.


Recollections about Jesus' words concerning divorce and remarriage occur four times in the Gospels: Mark 10:2-12; Matthew 19:3-9; Matthew 5:31-32; Luke 16:18. Just looking at the number of verses in each account indicates that there are some differences.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #100 on: March 15, 2021, 09:40:18 AM »

However Deuteronomy has Moses as the one who speaks what God told him.  God doesn’t speak the law himself.  Throughout Deuteronomy Moses is the speaker and not God.  So the issue about all kinds of types of “marriages” is about human-made constructs.  God’s original intention in Genesis 2 still stands as the only order/estate.  Not polygamy, et.al.


How could there be polygyny in Genesis 2 when there was only one woman for Adam? If we expand your logic, wouldn't it imply that God has created one woman for each man? Would that mean that divorces happen because the man didn't find the woman God had created for him?


That's not a road that I want to go down. I suspect that a vast majority, if not all weddings, occur because the couple believe that the other is the right one - the God-given partner.

To answer your questions:

1. That is precisely the point.  God's template is one man and one woman.  He could have made 37 women and had Adam choose one or more or all.  But He did not.  He made ONE.  The bride (singular) as a picture of the Bride of Christ (the Church). 

2. No more than it would suggest that God would form our wives out of our own ribs.

3. No.

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #101 on: March 15, 2021, 02:19:44 PM »

However Deuteronomy has Moses as the one who speaks what God told him.  God doesn’t speak the law himself.  Throughout Deuteronomy Moses is the speaker and not God.  So the issue about all kinds of types of “marriages” is about human-made constructs.  God’s original intention in Genesis 2 still stands as the only order/estate.  Not polygamy, et.al.


How could there be polygyny in Genesis 2 when there was only one woman for Adam? If we expand your logic, wouldn't it imply that God has created one woman for each man? Would that mean that divorces happen because the man didn't find the woman God had created for him?

That's not a road that I want to go down. I suspect that a vast majority, if not all weddings, occur because the couple believe that the other is the right one - the God-given partner.

To answer your questions:

1. That is precisely the point.  God's template is one man and one woman.  He could have made 37 women and had Adam choose one or more or all.  But He did not.  He made ONE.  The bride (singular) as a picture of the Bride of Christ (the Church).


And yet, God never gave commands limiting the number of women a man could marry. There was no judgment against Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, etc., for having more than one wife, slaves, or concubines. There is a command about when a man has two wives.


Adam didn't have enough ribs (or sides) for God to form 37 women. 

Quote
2. No more than it would suggest that God would form our wives out of our own ribs.

Although "flesh and bone" (Gen 29:14) and "flesh" (Gen 37:27) are used to refer to family relationships. We frown on marrying people who are too closely related.


Quote
3. No.


I agree. One good friend came to realize that the reason he and his first wife married was because it was a legitimate way to "run away from home." Marriage was a way they could get away from their parents without offending them. Another good friend admits that she married her first husband because he supplied her with illegal drugs. Both these friends had long marriages after the first ones ended after a short period of time.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #102 on: March 15, 2021, 03:00:55 PM »
Rev. Stoffregen,

While God did not give an explicit command, He DID only create ONE woman for Adam.  Aren't you the one who tells us, when you are bashing those mean old conservatives, that actions speak louder than words?  And if God had wanted to make 37 women for Adam out his ribs, He could have given Adam 37 more ribs.  Right?  Or are you trying to box God in?

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #103 on: March 15, 2021, 03:36:18 PM »
Rev. Stoffregen,

While God did not give an explicit command, He DID only create ONE woman for Adam.  Aren't you the one who tells us, when you are bashing those mean old conservatives, that actions speak louder than words?  And if God had wanted to make 37 women for Adam out his ribs, He could have given Adam 37 more ribs.  Right?  Or are you trying to box God in?


So, why didn't the ancient Israelites believe that monogamy was God's plan?


One woman was all that was necessary to be fruitful and multiply. For the same reason, God only commanded Noah to take two of each animal on the ark (according to the P account. Another source calls for seven of the clean animals - probably so that there would be some that could be sacrificed.) Two are all that were necessary to repopulate the animal kingdom.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 04:22:27 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #104 on: March 15, 2021, 05:44:55 PM »
Rev. Stoffregen,

While God did not give an explicit command, He DID only create ONE woman for Adam.  Aren't you the one who tells us, when you are bashing those mean old conservatives, that actions speak louder than words?  And if God had wanted to make 37 women for Adam out his ribs, He could have given Adam 37 more ribs.  Right?  Or are you trying to box God in?


So, why didn't the ancient Israelites believe that monogamy was God's plan?...

Here's three suggestions off the top of my head.  Pick one.

1. You'll have to ask them.
2. They did but chose to be like the nations.
3. The hardness of their hearts (much like the acceptance of divorce, although not part of God's plan).