Author Topic: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.  (Read 9850 times)

George Rahn

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2021, 05:02:49 PM »
Marriage is a social estate, created and preserved by God.  It is between one man and one woman exclusively.  Jesus reaffirms this in Mark 10:6-9.  After the fall and exile from the Garden humans have altered and formed their own constructs in defiance to God's original design.  It is the nature of sinners to do this.  Even divorce is against God's design as it only came about through a command from Moses (and not God).  There may be marriages created by human societal orders (ie. USSC) which make it a societal norm for same-sex marriages.  But this too is against God's design.


I'll remind you again, that the Old Testament does not have a word for "marriage." Rather, the Hebrew uses possession terms; usually, "to take a woman" to describe the transference from father to husband. The only word for husbands (besides "man") is ba`al, which means "to rule over" or "to own/possess". Thus, whatever relationship the first humans had in the garden, and the humans afterwards, was not seen in the same way that we view "marriage." The only words they used to describe the relationship was those related to property ownership.

So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 05:07:01 PM by George Rahn »

peter_speckhard

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2021, 05:41:25 PM »
Marriage is a social estate, created and preserved by God.  It is between one man and one woman exclusively.  Jesus reaffirms this in Mark 10:6-9.  After the fall and exile from the Garden humans have altered and formed their own constructs in defiance to God's original design.  It is the nature of sinners to do this.  Even divorce is against God's design as it only came about through a command from Moses (and not God).  There may be marriages created by human societal orders (ie. USSC) which make it a societal norm for same-sex marriages.  But this too is against God's design.


I'll remind you again, that the Old Testament does not have a word for "marriage." Rather, the Hebrew uses possession terms; usually, "to take a woman" to describe the transference from father to husband. The only word for husbands (besides "man") is ba`al, which means "to rule over" or "to own/possess". Thus, whatever relationship the first humans had in the garden, and the humans afterwards, was not seen in the same way that we view "marriage." The only words they used to describe the relationship was those related to property ownership.

So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.
Also, why is divorce bad? If marriage is just a matter of falling in love with someone and wanting to spend the rest of your life with that person, then why shouldn't people who fall out of love with each other and no longer want to spend the rest of their lives together not be allowed to do so? Once you remove the whole idea of the two becoming one flesh, which people of the same sex cannot do, and utterly divorce the roles husband and wife from the roles of father and mother, there seems to be precious little reason to bother with marrying or recognizing marriages at all. Why should society care who wrote "BFF" in whose yearbook? 

Charles Austin

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2021, 05:55:41 PM »
Good questions, Peter. Are you starting to lean liberal?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Watching the Tonys Sunday night, and what talent! What music! What a treasure Broadway theater and its people are! And this year, the concern for our society our culture and our nation, in diversity in the pandemic and in the arts was inspiring.

peter_speckhard

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2021, 06:08:12 PM »
Good questions, Peter. Are you starting to lean liberal?
No. Are you finally discerning the foolishness of progressivism? They are good questions only if one accepts the premise that marriage is just a matter people who love each other and want to live together. That isn’t what marriage is. 

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2021, 06:12:49 PM »
My $.02. This is not worth discussing with those who fall under 2 Thes. 2:11,12.


Thank you for the encouragement to study 2 Thessalonians more deeply.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2021, 06:21:12 PM »
So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.


Mark 10 is clearly referencing the Roman rules for marriage. Jewish law did not allow a wife to divorce her husband, but Mark 10:12 assumes that a wife could divorce her husband. Monogamy came into the church through Roman marriage rules, not Jewish ones. Note well, I'm not arguing that monogamy is a bad thing. My wife and I are starting to plan our 50th wedding anniversary this summer. (We've had both our shots. We're waiting for our sons and other relatives to get theirs so we might have a gathering of the extended family.) I am saying that I don't believe that monogamy originated from Scriptures.


Is there anything that humans can do with God's okay? I suspect that even our desire to be Christians is fraught with selfish desires: The benefits God gives us through faith. Similarly, our acts of repentance will be tainted with sin.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2021, 06:44:41 PM »
Marriage is a social estate, created and preserved by God.  It is between one man and one woman exclusively.  Jesus reaffirms this in Mark 10:6-9.  After the fall and exile from the Garden humans have altered and formed their own constructs in defiance to God's original design.  It is the nature of sinners to do this.  Even divorce is against God's design as it only came about through a command from Moses (and not God).  There may be marriages created by human societal orders (ie. USSC) which make it a societal norm for same-sex marriages.  But this too is against God's design.


I'll remind you again, that the Old Testament does not have a word for "marriage." Rather, the Hebrew uses possession terms; usually, "to take a woman" to describe the transference from father to husband. The only word for husbands (besides "man") is ba`al, which means "to rule over" or "to own/possess". Thus, whatever relationship the first humans had in the garden, and the humans afterwards, was not seen in the same way that we view "marriage." The only words they used to describe the relationship was those related to property ownership.

So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.
Also, why is divorce bad? If marriage is just a matter of falling in love with someone and wanting to spend the rest of your life with that person, then why shouldn't people who fall out of love with each other and no longer want to spend the rest of their lives together not be allowed to do so? Once you remove the whole idea of the two becoming one flesh, which people of the same sex cannot do, and utterly divorce the roles husband and wife from the roles of father and mother, there seems to be precious little reason to bother with marrying or recognizing marriages at all. Why should society care who wrote "BFF" in whose yearbook?


Among other reasons, divorce is bad because the two people made promises to each other and now they are breaking their promises. All the vows I offer to couples include a life-long commitment to each other.


Perhaps the most influential book for me I've read on marriage is The Sex Manual for Puritans, by Vernard Eller (© 1971 Abingdon Press). What I remember is that the basis for marriage is not love (or sex,) but commitment. The feeling of love within a marriage will go up and down. Experiences of sex may wane or become impossible because of health conditions. What a couple promise each other is to be committed to each other through all the good and bad times; the great moments of love (and sex) and those times when neither seem to be present.


Marriages end when one or both parties are no longer committed to the other.


And yes, Jesus was clear that because of human sin, namely, "hardness of heart," divorce laws are necessary. As I've heard a few people say, "Divorce is better than murder."


While George Rahn is right concerning Jesus' view that Moses (not God) gave the divorce law. Deuteronomy is clear that Moses is speaking for God in giving all the laws, e.g., "But watch yourself! Don’t forget the Lord your God by not keeping his commands or his case laws or his regulations that I am commanding you right now." (Deut 8:11, CEB)
.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

RDPreus

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2021, 07:56:17 PM »
The Bible clearly defines marriage as the lifelong union of one man and one woman.  If we read Genesis 1 & 2 as an historical account of the first man and the first women and we take to heart what the Lord Jesus says in Matthew 19 it is quite clear.  Jesus refers to what God has joined together in Matthew 19:6.  Marriage is God joining a man and a woman together.  With respect to same sex "marriage" we cannot say that God has joined them together.  Regardless of what the civil authorities say, same sex "marriage" is not marriage and no Christian should say that it is.


No where does Genesis 1 & 2 limit God to joining the man to one woman. The ancient Jews, for whom this was sacred scriptures, never interpreted it that way. Men were being joined to many women as wives, slaves, and concubines. Their children were often blessed by God.

Jesus is the one who interprets Genesis 1 & 2 to refer to God joining one man to one woman.  What Jesus says settles it.

Charles Austin

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2021, 08:16:47 PM »
Peter, is marriage as you define marriage an absolute necessity for human society? Is the marriage family unit as you describe it absolutely necessary for our nation?
Societies have organized around other types of family relationships.
Is your definition of a Christian marriage the only one that is valid, not only for Christians, but for society at large?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Watching the Tonys Sunday night, and what talent! What music! What a treasure Broadway theater and its people are! And this year, the concern for our society our culture and our nation, in diversity in the pandemic and in the arts was inspiring.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2021, 09:00:34 PM »
The Bible clearly defines marriage as the lifelong union of one man and one woman.  If we read Genesis 1 & 2 as an historical account of the first man and the first women and we take to heart what the Lord Jesus says in Matthew 19 it is quite clear.  Jesus refers to what God has joined together in Matthew 19:6.  Marriage is God joining a man and a woman together.  With respect to same sex "marriage" we cannot say that God has joined them together.  Regardless of what the civil authorities say, same sex "marriage" is not marriage and no Christian should say that it is.


No where does Genesis 1 & 2 limit God to joining the man to one woman. The ancient Jews, for whom this was sacred scriptures, never interpreted it that way. Men were being joined to many women as wives, slaves, and concubines. Their children were often blessed by God.

Jesus is the one who interprets Genesis 1 & 2 to refer to God joining one man to one woman.  What Jesus says settles it.


The only time Jesus uses "one" it's about "one flesh". Paul is clear that when a man joins with a woman, the two become one body. When the same man joins with another woman, they become one body. Paul is clear that the "one body-ness" of sex happens even when the two are not married.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Rahn

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2021, 09:02:30 PM »
So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.


Mark 10 is clearly referencing the Roman rules for marriage. Jewish law did not allow a wife to divorce her husband, but Mark 10:12 assumes that a wife could divorce her husband. Monogamy came into the church through Roman marriage rules, not Jewish ones. Note well, I'm not arguing that monogamy is a bad thing. My wife and I are starting to plan our 50th wedding anniversary this summer. (We've had both our shots. We're waiting for our sons and other relatives to get theirs so we might have a gathering of the extended family.) I am saying that I don't believe that monogamy originated from Scriptures.


Is there anything that humans can do with God's okay? I suspect that even our desire to be Christians is fraught with selfish desires: The benefits God gives us through faith. Similarly, our acts of repentance will be tainted with sin.

Mark 10?  No.  What Jesus quotes is straight out of Genesis in terms of marriage.  I don’t see how this is Roman law.   Btw, congrats on the longevity with your own marriage.  50 years is truly a milestone.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 09:06:48 PM by George Rahn »

peter_speckhard

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2021, 10:16:59 PM »
Peter, is marriage as you define marriage an absolute necessity for human society? Is the marriage family unit as you describe it absolutely necessary for our nation?
Societies have organized around other types of family relationships.
Is your definition of a Christian marriage the only one that is valid, not only for Christians, but for society at large?
No, it is not absolutely necessary for human society. But it is how God designed human society to function. It is like, say, eyesight. You can have human society without it, but it won't be as good as human society with it. The fourth commandment presupposes that every human being ought, apart from some tragedy, have a relationship with his or her father and his or her mother. The 6th commandment is a corollary-- that the father and mother ought to be exclusively devoted and loving toward each other, which is one way that a child grows up learning the proper template for eventually being a husband or wife. It is possible to have robots raise all the children, to remove children from their parents and have them raised by the government, to remove fathers from all but the insemination phase of procreation, and all kinds of other things. But no other arrangement will be as wholesome and good as God's design. Children are not raised exclusively by their nuclear family, but the nuclear family ought to be the nucleus. That is God's design, not my design, and it is as fundamental to the design of humanity as two eyes, a nose, and a mouth.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2021, 02:19:37 AM »
So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.


Mark 10 is clearly referencing the Roman rules for marriage. Jewish law did not allow a wife to divorce her husband, but Mark 10:12 assumes that a wife could divorce her husband. Monogamy came into the church through Roman marriage rules, not Jewish ones. Note well, I'm not arguing that monogamy is a bad thing. My wife and I are starting to plan our 50th wedding anniversary this summer. (We've had both our shots. We're waiting for our sons and other relatives to get theirs so we might have a gathering of the extended family.) I am saying that I don't believe that monogamy originated from Scriptures.


Is there anything that humans can do with God's okay? I suspect that even our desire to be Christians is fraught with selfish desires: The benefits God gives us through faith. Similarly, our acts of repentance will be tainted with sin.

Mark 10?  No.  What Jesus quotes is straight out of Genesis in terms of marriage.  I don’t see how this is Roman law.   Btw, congrats on the longevity with your own marriage.  50 years is truly a milestone.


Deuteronomy 21:15 assumes that some men will have two wives. It is never prohibited in the Torah. Rather, it is assumed that it will happen.


Roman law required monogamy, not Torah law. Both Julius Caesar and Augustus had to divorce a wife in order to marry another woman. Jewish leaders, like David and Solomon could just add wives to the ones they had.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dave Likeness

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2021, 10:07:35 AM »
Unfortunately, some current pastors stress their own subjective opinions on  Holy Scripture.
However, this method fails to let Holy Scripture speak on its own terms in the total context
as God's inspired Word.  Christian theology allows Scripture to interpret Scripture.

George Rahn

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Re: When “homosexuals” entered the Bible.
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2021, 12:00:53 PM »
So what order is Jesus describing in the Mark 10 passage?  Certainly he recognizes a certain estate into which one man and one woman enter.   Btw...what happens to this construct after the fall and exile in the Garden is always malleable so that humans can create situations which might be acceptable between or among them.  Sinners do this but never with God’s okay.


Mark 10 is clearly referencing the Roman rules for marriage. Jewish law did not allow a wife to divorce her husband, but Mark 10:12 assumes that a wife could divorce her husband. Monogamy came into the church through Roman marriage rules, not Jewish ones. Note well, I'm not arguing that monogamy is a bad thing. My wife and I are starting to plan our 50th wedding anniversary this summer. (We've had both our shots. We're waiting for our sons and other relatives to get theirs so we might have a gathering of the extended family.) I am saying that I don't believe that monogamy originated from Scriptures.


Is there anything that humans can do with God's okay? I suspect that even our desire to be Christians is fraught with selfish desires: The benefits God gives us through faith. Similarly, our acts of repentance will be tainted with sin.

Mark 10?  No.  What Jesus quotes is straight out of Genesis in terms of marriage.  I don’t see how this is Roman law.   Btw, congrats on the longevity with your own marriage.  50 years is truly a milestone.


Deuteronomy 21:15 assumes that some men will have two wives. It is never prohibited in the Torah. Rather, it is assumed that it will happen.


Roman law required monogamy, not Torah law. Both Julius Caesar and Augustus had to divorce a wife in order to marry another woman. Jewish leaders, like David and Solomon could just add wives to the ones they had.

For me Jesus is God.  His word is truth.  He does not lie.  So his word about marriage and divorce are accurate and true.  Marriage between Christians is monogamous because it is the best way to express love as it seeks to render God’s original intention faithfully.