Author Topic: Women's History Month  (Read 10773 times)

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17538
    • View Profile
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2021, 06:53:35 PM »
Words matter. Both the original word choice and your altering of it were deliberate. That’s because you both recognize the difference between speaking and preaching. It is a detour to have another discussion with pretending not to understand distinctions that you do in fact understand.


Yes, it was a deliberate change. If the reports said that Marva Dawn spoke at different congregations, would that have been acceptable? Can a woman "speak" during a worship service? (By this, I mean more than just reading lessons; but perhaps give a Temple Talk during a stewardship campaign; a talk to recruit Sunday school teachers, or choir members? When would that speech become preaching?
That is precisely the change of subject we’re trying to avoid. If it is part of the divine service and not part of the liturgy, it is preaching. If it is part of the announcements or otherwise outside the context of the divine service, it is speaking. I’m not interested in your what- if scenarios about apply Law and Gospel in an announcement or including an announcement in a sermon and so forth. If you can’t tell the difference, you are a fool. But since you can, we can drop it. Though I doubt you will. Pointless digressions hold too much fascination to you.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 976
    • View Profile
    • church history review
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2021, 08:15:32 PM »
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3793
    • View Profile
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2021, 08:34:08 PM »
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?

Sure.  My mother and my mother-in-law would be the first two on my list.  Taught their children the faith.  Excellent and supportive wives.  Between them, hundreds of miles apart, they probably served their congregations in just about every role: Sunday school teacher, organist, LWML, church secretary, volunteer extraordinaire, mentor to generations of younger women, Christian example to all.  Devoted to the Gospel, to the Church, to missions.  Smiling, friendly, welcoming, warm.  Living embodiments of the faith.

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13589
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2021, 11:39:39 PM »
We had the same kind of women in my church bodies, Pastor Bohler, and I refer to the Augustana Synod, the ULCA, and the LCA. But some felt the call to be a pastor, to preach, to preside, to lead a congregation of God's people. That does nothing to denigrate or lessen the value and nobility of that which was previously done by their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts and mothers-in-law. It was simply that their life in the church led them to sense a different call, the same call that their fathers, uncles and brothers had felt, the call to ordained ministry. And their questions were quite simple: Why can we not follow this call? We found out, after considerable prayer and study and some bit of controversy, that there was no reason we as the Church should not acknowledge their calls.
That may happen someday in your church body. Or, those in your church body who sense that call, and I'm sure they are there today, may have to answer it somewhere else.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17538
    • View Profile
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2021, 12:10:27 AM »
We had the same kind of women in my church bodies, Pastor Bohler, and I refer to the Augustana Synod, the ULCA, and the LCA. But some felt the call to be a pastor, to preach, to preside, to lead a congregation of God's people. That does nothing to denigrate or lessen the value and nobility of that which was previously done by their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts and mothers-in-law. It was simply that their life in the church led them to sense a different call, the same call that their fathers, uncles and brothers had felt, the call to ordained ministry. And their questions were quite simple: Why can we not follow this call? We found out, after considerable prayer and study and some bit of controversy, that there was no reason we as the Church should not acknowledge their calls.
That may happen someday in your church body. Or, those in your church body who sense that call, and I'm sure they are there today, may have to answer it somewhere else.
But too often the tales of such people are tales of the suffocating limits, the comparative meaninglessness and drudgery of it all, the shattering of barriers and the escape from bondage into freedom. Their foremothers are revered for the ways they tested boundaries and prepared the way, not for the ways they upheld the boundaries and made the whole thing work. The implication, contra all of their “not that there is anything wrong with that” patronizing of homemakers, is that church life as their mothers knew it is too small for them. That is a very different telling of the story than, “I just felt called to serve in a different way.”

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13589
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2021, 12:27:53 AM »
I do not think, Peter, that you have heard many of those “tales,” nor do I think you are capable of grasping the blessings of the ministries of ordained women.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43165
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2021, 03:18:12 AM »
Words matter. Both the original word choice and your altering of it were deliberate. That’s because you both recognize the difference between speaking and preaching. It is a detour to have another discussion with pretending not to understand distinctions that you do in fact understand.


Yes, it was a deliberate change. If the reports said that Marva Dawn spoke at different congregations, would that have been acceptable? Can a woman "speak" during a worship service? (By this, I mean more than just reading lessons; but perhaps give a Temple Talk during a stewardship campaign; a talk to recruit Sunday school teachers, or choir members? When would that speech become preaching?
That is precisely the change of subject we’re trying to avoid. If it is part of the divine service and not part of the liturgy, it is preaching. If it is part of the announcements or otherwise outside the context of the divine service, it is speaking. I’m not interested in your what- if scenarios about apply Law and Gospel in an announcement or including an announcement in a sermon and so forth. If you can’t tell the difference, you are a fool. But since you can, we can drop it. Though I doubt you will. Pointless digressions hold too much fascination to you.


It is clear that my experiences are vastly different than yours. For a year at LBI and two years at Concordia I was part of gospel singing groups that went in and led Sunday worship services. None of us were ordained. We didn't follow a liturgy. Both men and women on the teams spoke at these events. Sometimes it was more of a Bible study and sometimes it was more of a personal testimony. Where would those "talks" fit into your scheme?


A few of the Stewardship Campaigns that I used over the years called for Table Talks from lay people. They were inserted into the liturgy. They often used scripture passages and talked about their own personal stewardship. Both men and women would speak. Where would those "talks" fit into your scheme.


Perhaps you've never had such things in your congregation so outside of the divine service vs. part of the divine service is clearer in your setting than those I've been in.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 976
    • View Profile
    • church history review
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2021, 08:05:24 AM »
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?

Sure.  My mother and my mother-in-law would be the first two on my list.  Taught their children the faith.  Excellent and supportive wives.  Between them, hundreds of miles apart, they probably served their congregations in just about every role: Sunday school teacher, organist, LWML, church secretary, volunteer extraordinaire, mentor to generations of younger women, Christian example to all.  Devoted to the Gospel, to the Church, to missions.  Smiling, friendly, welcoming, warm.  Living embodiments of the faith.

Thank you, Steven. In the ancient church, exemplary women were remembered and celebrated through what became saints' lives. Lutherans and the Lutheran confessions embraced that tradition of good examples, which is what I would put forward to our congregation.

As I look over Lutheran histories, I'm not finding much of this ready to hand. I think we're not doing to good a job with it. LWML might have some such stories but no one has been able to link me to such sources. I think this may be a genuine gap in our history and even in our piety.

Have you considered writing up something about the family members you mentioned as exemplary Lutheran women?

I wonder, are there modern Lutheran women who were martyred, which is one of the ancient categories for such lives. What Lutheran women resisted the Nazis and communists? Showed special care for the poor, etc.?
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 976
    • View Profile
    • church history review
I serve as administrator for www.churchhistoryreview.org.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12454
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2021, 08:57:30 AM »
I do not think, Peter, that you have heard many of those “tales,” nor do I think you are capable of grasping the blessings of the ministries of ordained women.

The ELCA has a 50/40/10 project around women's ordination, as found here:  https://www.womenoftheelca.org/blog/post/womens-ordination.  I hadn't seen any of this before this morning, based on an email sent by the Metro Synod (NY) ELCA. 

50/40/10 refers to something I hadn't heard of before, a rule for happiness -
the state of happiness, according to the rule, is determined
50% by genetics
40% by state of mind
10% by circumstances

In this case, according to this link (https://elca.org/50yearsofordainedwomen), it refers to
50 years of women being ordained in the ELCA
40 years of women of color being ordained in the ELCA
10 years of LGBTQ individuals being able to serve freely in the ELCA

Dave Benke


John_Hannah

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5368
    • View Profile
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2021, 09:16:25 AM »
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?

Sure.  My mother and my mother-in-law would be the first two on my list.  Taught their children the faith.  Excellent and supportive wives.  Between them, hundreds of miles apart, they probably served their congregations in just about every role: Sunday school teacher, organist, LWML, church secretary, volunteer extraordinaire, mentor to generations of younger women, Christian example to all.  Devoted to the Gospel, to the Church, to missions.  Smiling, friendly, welcoming, warm.  Living embodiments of the faith.

Thank you, Steven. In the ancient church, exemplary women were remembered and celebrated through what became saints' lives. Lutherans and the Lutheran confessions embraced that tradition of good examples, which is what I would put forward to our congregation.

As I look over Lutheran histories, I'm not finding much of this ready to hand. I think we're not doing to good a job with it. LWML might have some such stories but no one has been able to link me to such sources. I think this may be a genuine gap in our history and even in our piety.

Have you considered writing up something about the family members you mentioned as exemplary Lutheran women?

I wonder, are there modern Lutheran women who were martyred, which is one of the ancient categories for such lives. What Lutheran women resisted the Nazis and communists? Showed special care for the poor, etc.?

EDWARD,

I think a fruitful place to start looking for exemplary Christian women would be, New Book of Festivals and Commemorations by Philip H. Pfatteicher, Fortress Press. There will be entries on women scattered through the entire history of the Church. Each entry includes an account of their lives as we are able to know it.   ;D

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13589
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2021, 09:31:04 AM »
Sophie Scholl and the White Rose. Look her up. And there is a movie.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17538
    • View Profile
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2021, 09:51:11 AM »
I do not think, Peter, that you have heard many of those “tales,” nor do I think you are capable of grasping the blessings of the ministries of ordained women.
You think wrongly. But no need to respond; I already know you won't let facts change your opinion.

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3793
    • View Profile
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2021, 09:55:19 AM »
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?

Sure.  My mother and my mother-in-law would be the first two on my list.  Taught their children the faith.  Excellent and supportive wives.  Between them, hundreds of miles apart, they probably served their congregations in just about every role: Sunday school teacher, organist, LWML, church secretary, volunteer extraordinaire, mentor to generations of younger women, Christian example to all.  Devoted to the Gospel, to the Church, to missions.  Smiling, friendly, welcoming, warm.  Living embodiments of the faith.

Thank you, Steven. In the ancient church, exemplary women were remembered and celebrated through what became saints' lives. Lutherans and the Lutheran confessions embraced that tradition of good examples, which is what I would put forward to our congregation.

As I look over Lutheran histories, I'm not finding much of this ready to hand. I think we're not doing to good a job with it. LWML might have some such stories but no one has been able to link me to such sources. I think this may be a genuine gap in our history and even in our piety.

Have you considered writing up something about the family members you mentioned as exemplary Lutheran women?

I wonder, are there modern Lutheran women who were martyred, which is one of the ancient categories for such lives. What Lutheran women resisted the Nazis and communists? Showed special care for the poor, etc.?

1. I don't think either my mother or my mother-in-law would be comfortable with such a "spotlight" on them.  They would be the first to deflect it and tell us to look at Christ.

2. My guess is that you would find such women in virtually EVERY congregation and, hopefully, in every family.  Each congregation could/should honor these women for their Christian service.

3. We tend to focus on the "awesome" and forget the everyday.  And yet that (the everyday) is precisely where God works.  That is part of the genius of Luther's teaching on vocation.

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3793
    • View Profile
Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2021, 10:00:16 AM »
We had the same kind of women in my church bodies, Pastor Bohler, and I refer to the Augustana Synod, the ULCA, and the LCA. But some felt the call to be a pastor, to preach, to preside, to lead a congregation of God's people. That does nothing to denigrate or lessen the value and nobility of that which was previously done by their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts and mothers-in-law. It was simply that their life in the church led them to sense a different call, the same call that their fathers, uncles and brothers had felt, the call to ordained ministry. And their questions were quite simple: Why can we not follow this call? We found out, after considerable prayer and study and some bit of controversy, that there was no reason we as the Church should not acknowledge their calls.
That may happen someday in your church body. Or, those in your church body who sense that call, and I'm sure they are there today, may have to answer it somewhere else.

1. No reason?  I guess the Bible is no reason for some.  Nor is church history and practice.

2. Not all calls are from God.  Eve felt a call to eat of the forbidden fruit.