Author Topic: Women's History Month  (Read 10723 times)

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #120 on: March 21, 2021, 08:04:10 AM »
Pastor Fienen:
But time and again when the topic of women's ordination comes up, Charles and you will trot out all the women who feel that they are called by God to be pastors and how dare we deny them.
Me:
And you will try to tell us.
Can you point me at least to a scholarly presentation on why in Confessional Lutheranism women may not be ordained? I am often interested in your CTCR papers.

You specifically asked about the CTCR.  Here is a link: https://www.lcms.org/about/leadership/commission-on-theology-and-church-relations/documents/man-and-woman-in-the-church

For more in-depth study, here is a book edited by the current LCMS president and containing a number of chapters by professors (current and past) from both St. Louis and Fort Wayne seminaries, among others: https://www.cph.org/p-19258-women-pastors-third-edition.aspx
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 11:02:20 AM by Richard Johnson »

Charles Austin

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #121 on: March 21, 2021, 10:05:08 AM »
Thank you. Most of those documents have been in my files for some time. I shall take another look at them and look at the ones that are relatively new to me. Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

jebutler

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #122 on: March 21, 2021, 12:10:54 PM »

3.  Since I believe God wants women to be ordained, I believe that someday you will understand that too, and ordain them.

Since I believe that God does not want women to be ordained, "I believe that someday you will understand that too" and will repent of your error.


5.  I understand your viewpoint and whence it comes and since I think it is very wrong, I do not respect it.

Right back at you!


6.  I do not expect you to respect my viewpoint.

Since I know you loved Rush Limbaugh, I'll simply say "Ditto."

But thanks for admitting that you are sure you are right and not at all tolerant of other opinions. Just like you often accuse the LCMS of being!
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

Randy Bosch

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #123 on: March 21, 2021, 12:58:45 PM »
Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?

What arguments?  Nothing has changed since the Apostle Paul provided instruction, as found in his various letters in the New Testament.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #124 on: March 21, 2021, 01:04:17 PM »

3.  Since I believe God wants women to be ordained, I believe that someday you will understand that too, and ordain them.

Since I believe that God does not want women to be ordained, "I believe that someday you will understand that too" and will repent of your error.


While there are numerous church bodies who have moved to ordain women; are there any church bodies who went the other way? Namely, stopped ordaining women after it had been approved?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #125 on: March 21, 2021, 01:06:25 PM »

3.  Since I believe God wants women to be ordained, I believe that someday you will understand that too, and ordain them.

Since I believe that God does not want women to be ordained, "I believe that someday you will understand that too" and will repent of your error.


While there are numerous church bodies who have moved to ordain women; are there any church bodies who went the other way? Namely, stopped ordaining women after it had been approved?

One that comes immediately to mind is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia. 

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #126 on: March 21, 2021, 01:12:15 PM »
Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?

What arguments?  Nothing has changed since the Apostle Paul provided instruction, as found in his various letters in the New Testament.


Much has changed since the first century. Women are no longer required to cover their heads to give one example. I note some changes off the top of my head in the 20th century: women were given the right to vote; a wife could charge her husband with rape; women could get their own credit cards and establish their own credit separate from their husbands. Women are serving in many positions that had been "men-only," e.g., senators, representatives, vice-president, doctors, lawyers, engineers, truck drivers. Conversely, there are male nurses and secretaries and home-makers; roles that had been limited to women.


I also note, as I posted in another discussion, that the Roman Catholic argument for male-only clergy does not rest on Paul's instructions.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Randy Bosch

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #127 on: March 21, 2021, 01:25:52 PM »
Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?

What arguments?  Nothing has changed since the Apostle Paul provided instruction, as found in his various letters in the New Testament.


Much has changed since the first century. Women are no longer required to cover their heads to give one example. I note some changes off the top of my head in the 20th century: women were given the right to vote; a wife could charge her husband with rape; women could get their own credit cards and establish their own credit separate from their husbands. Women are serving in many positions that had been "men-only," e.g., senators, representatives, vice-president, doctors, lawyers, engineers, truck drivers. Conversely, there are male nurses and secretaries and home-makers; roles that had been limited to women.


I also note, as I posted in another discussion, that the Roman Catholic argument for male-only clergy does not rest on Paul's instructions.

Note that your response is not related to the question, to wit, "Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?  You addressed secular issues, not ordained ministry.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #128 on: March 21, 2021, 02:02:11 PM »
Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?

What arguments?  Nothing has changed since the Apostle Paul provided instruction, as found in his various letters in the New Testament.


Much has changed since the first century. Women are no longer required to cover their heads to give one example. I note some changes off the top of my head in the 20th century: women were given the right to vote; a wife could charge her husband with rape; women could get their own credit cards and establish their own credit separate from their husbands. Women are serving in many positions that had been "men-only," e.g., senators, representatives, vice-president, doctors, lawyers, engineers, truck drivers. Conversely, there are male nurses and secretaries and home-makers; roles that had been limited to women.


I also note, as I posted in another discussion, that the Roman Catholic argument for male-only clergy does not rest on Paul's instructions.

Note that your response is not related to the question, to wit, "Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?  You addressed secular issues, not ordained ministry.
True. Yet there is a striking parallel because secular and ecclesial developments, which to some argues for WO, and to others it, if not argues, at least reinforces arguments against it. The secularization of the Western world shouldn’t show up in the church.

Charles Austin

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #129 on: March 21, 2021, 02:27:41 PM »
Jebutler writes:
But thanks for admitting that you are sure you are right and not at all tolerant of other opinions. Just like you often accuse the LCMS of being!
I comment:
Nice try. But you overstate. No, in the ELCA, we are not very "tolerant" of those who say women should never be ordained. (But unlike you, we probably do not hound them out of the church body or bring them up on heresy charges.)  But we are "tolerant" of those - like the LCMS and the Roman Catholics, who do not yet ordain women; that is, we consider them valid Christians and in the case of the LCMS, valid Lutherans. But your church body calls us "heterodox" and loud voices in your church body say much worse things about us.
I would have no problem being in communion fellowship with the LCMS, but most of my ELCA colleagues would not, largely over the issue of women. And - glory be! - most (but not all) of your LCMS colleagues would not be in communion fellowship with the ELCA for exactly the same reason!
Peter writes:
The secularization of the Western world shouldn’t show up in the church.
I ask:
When was the "Western world" not "secularized"? And what does that mean? Medieval Europe was largely "Christianized," but how decent was that through the times of the Medici and Borgia popes, the union of church and state and the crusades or wars of religion?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 02:54:00 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #130 on: March 21, 2021, 02:30:16 PM »
Peter writes:
But thanks for admitting that you are sure you are right and not at all tolerant of other opinions. Just like you often accuse the LCMS of being!
I comment:
Nice try. But you overstate. No, in the ELCA, we are not very "tolerant" of those who say women should never be ordained. (But unlike you, we probably do not hound them out of the church body or bring them up on heresy charges.)  But we are "tolerant" of those - like the LCMS and the Roman Catholics, who do not yet ordain women; that is, we consider them valid Christians and in the case of the LCMS, valid Lutherans. But your church body calls us "heterodox" and loud voices in your church body say much worse things about us.
I would have no problem being in communion fellowship with the LCMS, but most of my ELCA colleagues would not, largely over the issue of women. And - glory be! - most (but not all) of your LCMS colleagues would not be in communion fellowship with the ELCA for exactly the same reason!
Peter writes:
The secularization of the Western world shouldn’t show up in the church.
I ask:
When was the "Western world" not "secularized"? And what does that mean? Medieval Europe was largely "Christianized," but how decent was that through the times of the Medici and Borgia popes, the union of church and state and the crusades or wars of religion?
Actually, I never wrote what you say I wrote. You’re mixed up in your quotations. Again.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #131 on: March 21, 2021, 02:45:41 PM »
Does it really matter who said what? Progressives are much into collective guilt. If you are conservative or traditional then you are automatically responsible for anything that anyone on the conservative side of things said, whether you said it or not or even agree with it or not.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Dave Benke

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #132 on: March 21, 2021, 02:49:03 PM »
Certainly this afternoon it's worth noting the second most powerful person affiliated with the Jesuit cause in the world.  Of course I'm speaking of Sister Jean Schmidt of Ignatius Loyola of Chicago.  The centenarian nun propelled her team into the Sweet 16 as they overcame the #1 seed, Illinois.  How does she do it?  Lutherans would like to know.

Dave Benke

Charles Austin

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #133 on: March 21, 2021, 02:54:38 PM »
I fixed the one citation, Peter. The second one is definitely yours. And I should not of responded to someone who is still an anonymous poster. And you should’ve noticed that there was still an anonymous poster.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Dave Benke

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Re: Women's History Month
« Reply #134 on: March 21, 2021, 02:54:49 PM »
Back to the story and history of Lutheran women:

The late Jean Garton was a woman who promoted the LCMS pro-life stance within and beyond the synod.  Jean was a gifted writer, Who Broke the Baby and an outstanding public speaker.  She was also a woman who, when prepared to resume her teaching career, became pregnant.  It was not a planned pregnancy.  In her distress she considered an abortion.  Hers was the story only a woman could tell.

Jean Garton became a highly sought after speaker within the LCMS.  Requests came to speak at LCMS Youth Gatherings that included a worship element.  She was also asked to speak to students at Concordia College at daily chapel.  Pastors invited her to have a dialog question and answer message with the pastor during worship. 

There were critics who questioned whether Jean was "speaking" or "preaching."

Thirty years ago Jean led a retreat for Atlantic District pastor's wives. Late one evening, she and I had a private chat about when LCMS women could in good conscience "speak" in public, including a worship service.  At the time I was part of the LCMS Human Care and World Relief "Speakers Bureau."  Pastor's invited me to "speak" to their congregation on Sunday morning on how Christian families can respond to world hunger.  When a daughter was a student at Concordia Bronxville, the college president asked me to speak to the students in chapel on how they could respond to world hunger.  When my message was printed in the Concordia Bronxville newsletter, a brother in Christ called to say I had sinned.

Until the time of her death Jean, when invited, continued to "speak"a biblical pro life message during a worship service. She would speak from the lectern in her Sunday dress.  Like Jean, I accepted invitations from LCMS pastors to tell the story of LCMS Human Care and World Relief.  It was my practice to relate a biblical passage to how families, particularly the moms, can respond to our Lord's command to feed the hungry. Like Jean, I spoke from the lectern in my Sunday dress

Are LCMS pastors misguided/sinning when they invited a woman to "speak" during a worship service about an area of the Christian life from her perspective as a woman?   

Marie Meyer



     


 

Thanks for remembering Jean Garton (+) in Women's History Month, Marie.  The daughter of an NYPD detective from Maspeth, Queens, Jean brought such incredible passion and purpose to the cause of Life.  I met Henry Hyde at an event some years ago, and his first question was to ask how Jean was doing.  He called her the brightest Lutheran light in the Pro-Life firmament.  Jean often met resistance within the re-pristinating element in the LCMS, even as she served on the CTCR and the Synod's Board of Directors.  She kept on keeping on through it all.  She could and did speak, eloquently, on matters practical, moral and theological. 

Dave Benke