Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?

[Brian Stoffregen]

Brian, of course we should also condemn all heterosexual behavior outside of one man/one woman marriage as well as all the other sins Paul condemns in Romans chapter 1.  But that's NOT what you said earlier.  You said Paul was condemning judging as being a sin (even though Paul was "judging" in sayin so!) and you failed to make the distinction between "self-righteous judging" (failing to see one's own sin and failing to point sinners to Christ) versus the kind of godly judging for the sake of saving others which Jesus actually COMMANDS that we repentant sinners do!  But it now appears that you agree with Rolf and me that godly judging is NOT sinful and that God actually expects us to do it.  Glad you agree with us!

A big difference is that self-righteous judging centers on the sins of those other people: "You have sinned by …."; thus indicating, "I don't have that sin." Repentant judging puts one's self under the same judgment: "We have sinned by …."


Another issue I brought up that hasn't been dealt with: what does repentance look like? Paul seemed clear in Romans 7 that no amount of repentance would keep him from sinning. If one finds himself meting out self-righteous judgment and repents of that, does that then mean he should stop judging people? When alcoholics recognize their sin of alcoholism; part of the cure is to stop drinking.

[RDPreus]

Brian, please excuse me for quoting myself, but your arguments reminded me of a sermon I preached a couple of weeks ago at our midweek Lenten Vespers.  It was on Psalm 6.  Here is the introduction:

“Sure, I’m a sinner.  So is everyone else.  We’re all sinners.  I’m not perfect!  Neither are you.  So leave me alone.  Quit your judging.  You’re just as much a sinner as I am.”  Well, that might work.  Attack the messenger.  It might shut him up.  “Judge not!”  Said with sufficient indignation it may parry whatever correction comes your way.  Since everyone is a sinner, anyone who tries to correct you is a sinner and being a sinner disqualifies one from pointing out anyone else’s sin.  This is how sin becomes an abstract construct with no reality.  The only thing that is a sin these days is to say that something is sinful and someone did it.  Welcome to the 21st century!

[aletheist]

The only thing that is a sin these days is to say that something is sinful and someone did it.

Indeed, and the one thing that our society will not tolerate is (perceived) intolerance.

[Tom Eckstein]

Brian, just because Paul does not use the specific word μετανοέω does NOT mean that in Romans he does not call sinners to agree with God that their sin is evil and deserves condemnation.  In fact, you know Paul does this!  So stop playing games.

Paul also sees himself constantly under God's judgment (as well his his own) in Romans 7. He cannot stop sinning.

In 1st Corinthians Paul has no problem "judging" the sin of the incestuous man not to mention "judging" various other sins in Corinth - and Paul does NOT consider himself to be sinning in doing so.  In fact, Paul teaches that the Corinthian congregation IS sinning via their pride in the incestuous man's sin rather than engaging in church discipline for the sake of this man's salvation.

The judgment there, as well as in Matthew 18, is about sins against other people within the church. "If a brother sins against you."

The type of "judging" that Jesus and the apostles condemn is a self-righteous judging that fails to see one's own sin and fails to point others to Christ as the only Savior from sin.  But in NO place in the NT does Jesus or the apostles teach that we should NOT rebuke particular sins in other people.  In fact, both Jesus and the apostles stress that we SHOULD rebuke sin in other people so that they might repent and receive forgiveness in Christ. (Matthew 18:15-20; Luke 17:3 & 24:47; Acts 3:26; Acts 8:22-23; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5 [where Paul rebukes the UNrepentant for their self-righteous judging]; Romans 6:12-13; Romans 13:12-13; Romans 16:17-18; 1st Corinthians 5:1-13; 1st Corinthians 6:9-10; 1st Corinthians 10:1-14; 1st Corinthians 14:37-38; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:1-2; Ephesians 5:3-17; Colossians 3:5-10; 1st Thessalonians 4:1-8; 1st Timothy 1:3; 1st Timothy 1:19-20; 2nd Timothy 2:25-26; 2nd Timothy 3:1-17; 2nd Timothy 4:1-4; Titus 1:10-16; Titus 3:10-11; James 5:19-20; 1st Peter 4:1-6; 2nd Peter 2:1-22; 1st John 2:3-29; 1st John 4:1-6; 2nd John 8-11; 3rd John 9-10; Jude 3-4)  I could list MANY MORE!

But again, you already know this.

Yup, I knew that you would find a way to justify judging other people. (I don't see Paul stating in Romans 2 that repentant sinners are free the the judgment he makes against judging.) I see it more as saying that we do not have the ability to judge as God judges. And as sinful people, we are just as likely to be wrong about our rebukes (see Matthew 16:22; 19:13; 20:31 when the disciples' rebukes were misguided). I'm also quite aware of the parable of the weeds and wheat - that the servants judgment against the weeds; as correct as it might have been, would have done more damage than if they had left them alone and left the judgment up to God at the last days.


Most often, e.g., Matthew 18; 1 Corinthians, we must judge and seek to remove behaviors that are detrimental to the Christian community. "If a brother sins against you" (Matthew 18:15). The issues there about church discipline are the sins we commit against each other.

Brian, Scripture clearly teaches that repentant sinners are to engage in "godly judging" by calling others to repentance for particular sins so that they might confess those sins (1st John 1:8-10) and receive forgiveness through faith in Christ.  You know full well that it is wrong to say that the only time we can call others to repent is if they sin against US.  When Paul rebuked the incestuous man in Corinth, this man had not sinned against Paul.  This man sinned against GOD and OTHERS (which is the case for any sin!), and Paul rebukes him and commands the Corinthian congregation to engage in church discipline with this man so that he might be saved.  All the sins Paul rebukes in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10 are NOT sins against Paul himself but sins people have committed against God and others - and Paul still rebukes them and makes it clear that if they refuse to repent they will NOT enter God's Kingdom.

Also, to repent does not mean that one now must live a sinless life.  We all know what Paul says in Romans 7:14ff and that we will continue to struggle with the desires of our sinful nature until the day we die.  Nevertheless, Paul still calls us to live in daily repentance!  This means, at the very least, that we agree with God when He condemns various evil desires, thoughts, words and deeds in our lives, we trust in Christ for forgiveness and we strive to turn from those sins and do better.  However, if one affirms sin that God condemns, sees no need to be forgiven for that sin, and fully intends to continue in that sin without remorse, then such a person is in danger of hell unless he/she is brought to repentance and faith in Christ.  That's Paul's point in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10.  He's not saying that such sins can't be forgiven nor is he saying that repentant believers will never struggle with such sins.  What Paul IS saying in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10 is that those who affirm such sins and see no need to repent of them will NOT be in God's Kingdom.  That's the same point Paul makes in Romans 1:32.

[Tom Eckstein]

Brian, of course we should also condemn all heterosexual behavior outside of one man/one woman marriage as well as all the other sins Paul condemns in Romans chapter 1.  But that's NOT what you said earlier.  You said Paul was condemning judging as being a sin (even though Paul was "judging" in sayin so!) and you failed to make the distinction between "self-righteous judging" (failing to see one's own sin and failing to point sinners to Christ) versus the kind of godly judging for the sake of saving others which Jesus actually COMMANDS that we repentant sinners do!  But it now appears that you agree with Rolf and me that godly judging is NOT sinful and that God actually expects us to do it.  Glad you agree with us!

A big difference is that self-righteous judging centers on the sins of those other people: "You have sinned by …."; thus indicating, "I don't have that sin." Repentant judging puts one's self under the same judgment: "We have sinned by …."


Another issue I brought up that hasn't been dealt with: what does repentance look like? Paul seemed clear in Romans 7 that no amount of repentance would keep him from sinning. If one finds himself meting out self-righteous judgment and repents of that, does that then mean he should stop judging people? When alcoholics recognize their sin of alcoholism; part of the cure is to stop drinking.

Brian, neither I nor Rolf ever said that rebuking others for a sin in their life means that we deny our own sin.  Where did you get that idea?  Paul calls himself the "worst of sinners" and yet he rebuked others for their sin all the time.  The kind of "judging" Jesus condemns is "judging" that fails to see one's own sin and fails to point others to Christ.  At the same time, Jesus COMMANDS that repentant believers engage in GODLY judging, that is, calling sin what it is, lovingly telling others who engage in such sin that they must agree with God that their sin is evil and deserves God's wrath that they must trust in Jesus for forgiveness and for the strength to live according to God's loving will for our lives (see Romans 12:1-2 and Titus 2:11-15).

As for repentance, this not only includes agreeing with God when He condemns particular sins in our lives but also striving to turn from that sin and live according to God's will.  Can we do this perfectly this side of heaven?  Of course not!  Thus the need for daily repentance until the day we die.  However, if we celebrate the sin God condemns and throw a parade for it (Romans 1:32), then we reject God's Word (1st John 1:10) and push away the forgiveness God would give us.

[Tom Eckstein]

Brian, just because Paul does not use the specific word μετανοέω does NOT mean that in Romans he does not call sinners to agree with God that their sin is evil and deserves condemnation.  In fact, you know Paul does this!  So stop playing games.

Paul also sees himself constantly under God's judgment (as well his his own) in Romans 7. He cannot stop sinning.

In 1st Corinthians Paul has no problem "judging" the sin of the incestuous man not to mention "judging" various other sins in Corinth - and Paul does NOT consider himself to be sinning in doing so.  In fact, Paul teaches that the Corinthian congregation IS sinning via their pride in the incestuous man's sin rather than engaging in church discipline for the sake of this man's salvation.

The judgment there, as well as in Matthew 18, is about sins against other people within the church. "If a brother sins against you."

The type of "judging" that Jesus and the apostles condemn is a self-righteous judging that fails to see one's own sin and fails to point others to Christ as the only Savior from sin.  But in NO place in the NT does Jesus or the apostles teach that we should NOT rebuke particular sins in other people.  In fact, both Jesus and the apostles stress that we SHOULD rebuke sin in other people so that they might repent and receive forgiveness in Christ. (Matthew 18:15-20; Luke 17:3 & 24:47; Acts 3:26; Acts 8:22-23; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5 [where Paul rebukes the UNrepentant for their self-righteous judging]; Romans 6:12-13; Romans 13:12-13; Romans 16:17-18; 1st Corinthians 5:1-13; 1st Corinthians 6:9-10; 1st Corinthians 10:1-14; 1st Corinthians 14:37-38; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:1-2; Ephesians 5:3-17; Colossians 3:5-10; 1st Thessalonians 4:1-8; 1st Timothy 1:3; 1st Timothy 1:19-20; 2nd Timothy 2:25-26; 2nd Timothy 3:1-17; 2nd Timothy 4:1-4; Titus 1:10-16; Titus 3:10-11; James 5:19-20; 1st Peter 4:1-6; 2nd Peter 2:1-22; 1st John 2:3-29; 1st John 4:1-6; 2nd John 8-11; 3rd John 9-10; Jude 3-4)  I could list MANY MORE!

But again, you already know this.

Yup, I knew that you would find a way to justify judging other people. (I don't see Paul stating in Romans 2 that repentant sinners are free the the judgment he makes against judging.) I see it more as saying that we do not have the ability to judge as God judges. And as sinful people, we are just as likely to be wrong about our rebukes (see Matthew 16:22; 19:13; 20:31 when the disciples' rebukes were misguided). I'm also quite aware of the parable of the weeds and wheat - that the servants judgment against the weeds; as correct as it might have been, would have done more damage than if they had left them alone and left the judgment up to God at the last days.


Most often, e.g., Matthew 18; 1 Corinthians, we must judge and seek to remove behaviors that are detrimental to the Christian community. "If a brother sins against you" (Matthew 18:15). The issues there about church discipline are the sins we commit against each other.

Also, according to your erroneous view of Scripture, the only time we can rebuke someone is if they sin against us personally.  Not only does Scripture NOT teach this, but the OT prophets and NT apostles rebuked others for sins in their lives all the time even though those people had not sinned against the prophets or apostles personally.  In fact, if your view of judging is true, then the only time a pastor can speak of sin from the pulpit is if it's a sin someone has committed against him.  That's ridiculous, of course.  As pastors, we are called to rebuke the sins in the lives of others whether they have sinned against us personally or not - with the full understanding that we ourselves as pastors are also guilty of many sins and need forgiveness from Jesus as much as anyone else.  The simple fact is that one of the duties of a pastor is to show love for a member who is caught up in unrepentant sin by exposing that sin in his/her life, calling them to repentance and faith in Jesus - and if they refuse to repent, to exercise church discipline.

[Tom Eckstein]

Brian, just because Paul does not use the specific word μετανοέω does NOT mean that in Romans he does not call sinners to agree with God that their sin is evil and deserves condemnation.  In fact, you know Paul does this!  So stop playing games.

Paul also sees himself constantly under God's judgment (as well his his own) in Romans 7. He cannot stop sinning.

In 1st Corinthians Paul has no problem "judging" the sin of the incestuous man not to mention "judging" various other sins in Corinth - and Paul does NOT consider himself to be sinning in doing so.  In fact, Paul teaches that the Corinthian congregation IS sinning via their pride in the incestuous man's sin rather than engaging in church discipline for the sake of this man's salvation.

The judgment there, as well as in Matthew 18, is about sins against other people within the church. "If a brother sins against you."

The type of "judging" that Jesus and the apostles condemn is a self-righteous judging that fails to see one's own sin and fails to point others to Christ as the only Savior from sin.  But in NO place in the NT does Jesus or the apostles teach that we should NOT rebuke particular sins in other people.  In fact, both Jesus and the apostles stress that we SHOULD rebuke sin in other people so that they might repent and receive forgiveness in Christ. (Matthew 18:15-20; Luke 17:3 & 24:47; Acts 3:26; Acts 8:22-23; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5 [where Paul rebukes the UNrepentant for their self-righteous judging]; Romans 6:12-13; Romans 13:12-13; Romans 16:17-18; 1st Corinthians 5:1-13; 1st Corinthians 6:9-10; 1st Corinthians 10:1-14; 1st Corinthians 14:37-38; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:1-2; Ephesians 5:3-17; Colossians 3:5-10; 1st Thessalonians 4:1-8; 1st Timothy 1:3; 1st Timothy 1:19-20; 2nd Timothy 2:25-26; 2nd Timothy 3:1-17; 2nd Timothy 4:1-4; Titus 1:10-16; Titus 3:10-11; James 5:19-20; 1st Peter 4:1-6; 2nd Peter 2:1-22; 1st John 2:3-29; 1st John 4:1-6; 2nd John 8-11; 3rd John 9-10; Jude 3-4)  I could list MANY MORE!

But again, you already know this.

Yup, I knew that you would find a way to justify judging other people. (I don't see Paul stating in Romans 2 that repentant sinners are free the the judgment he makes against judging.) I see it more as saying that we do not have the ability to judge as God judges. And as sinful people, we are just as likely to be wrong about our rebukes (see Matthew 16:22; 19:13; 20:31 when the disciples' rebukes were misguided). I'm also quite aware of the parable of the weeds and wheat - that the servants judgment against the weeds; as correct as it might have been, would have done more damage than if they had left them alone and left the judgment up to God at the last days.


Most often, e.g., Matthew 18; 1 Corinthians, we must judge and seek to remove behaviors that are detrimental to the Christian community. "If a brother sins against you" (Matthew 18:15). The issues there about church discipline are the sins we commit against each other.

Brian, here's just one of numerous examples of repentant believers rebuking others and calling others to repentance for the sake of their salvation:  When the prophet Nathan rebukes David for his adultery and murder.  David had not sinned against Nathan, but Nathan rebukes David nevertheless so that David might repent and be saved.

[David Garner]

Brian, just because Paul does not use the specific word μετανοέω does NOT mean that in Romans he does not call sinners to agree with God that their sin is evil and deserves condemnation.  In fact, you know Paul does this!  So stop playing games.

Paul also sees himself constantly under God's judgment (as well his his own) in Romans 7. He cannot stop sinning.

In 1st Corinthians Paul has no problem "judging" the sin of the incestuous man not to mention "judging" various other sins in Corinth - and Paul does NOT consider himself to be sinning in doing so.  In fact, Paul teaches that the Corinthian congregation IS sinning via their pride in the incestuous man's sin rather than engaging in church discipline for the sake of this man's salvation.

The judgment there, as well as in Matthew 18, is about sins against other people within the church. "If a brother sins against you."

The type of "judging" that Jesus and the apostles condemn is a self-righteous judging that fails to see one's own sin and fails to point others to Christ as the only Savior from sin.  But in NO place in the NT does Jesus or the apostles teach that we should NOT rebuke particular sins in other people.  In fact, both Jesus and the apostles stress that we SHOULD rebuke sin in other people so that they might repent and receive forgiveness in Christ. (Matthew 18:15-20; Luke 17:3 & 24:47; Acts 3:26; Acts 8:22-23; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5 [where Paul rebukes the UNrepentant for their self-righteous judging]; Romans 6:12-13; Romans 13:12-13; Romans 16:17-18; 1st Corinthians 5:1-13; 1st Corinthians 6:9-10; 1st Corinthians 10:1-14; 1st Corinthians 14:37-38; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:1-2; Ephesians 5:3-17; Colossians 3:5-10; 1st Thessalonians 4:1-8; 1st Timothy 1:3; 1st Timothy 1:19-20; 2nd Timothy 2:25-26; 2nd Timothy 3:1-17; 2nd Timothy 4:1-4; Titus 1:10-16; Titus 3:10-11; James 5:19-20; 1st Peter 4:1-6; 2nd Peter 2:1-22; 1st John 2:3-29; 1st John 4:1-6; 2nd John 8-11; 3rd John 9-10; Jude 3-4)  I could list MANY MORE!

But again, you already know this.

Yup, I knew that you would find a way to justify judging other people. (I don't see Paul stating in Romans 2 that repentant sinners are free the the judgment he makes against judging.) I see it more as saying that we do not have the ability to judge as God judges. And as sinful people, we are just as likely to be wrong about our rebukes (see Matthew 16:22; 19:13; 20:31 when the disciples' rebukes were misguided). I'm also quite aware of the parable of the weeds and wheat - that the servants judgment against the weeds; as correct as it might have been, would have done more damage than if they had left them alone and left the judgment up to God at the last days.


Most often, e.g., Matthew 18; 1 Corinthians, we must judge and seek to remove behaviors that are detrimental to the Christian community. "If a brother sins against you" (Matthew 18:15). The issues there about church discipline are the sins we commit against each other.

Brian, here's just one of numerous examples of repentant believers rebuking others and calling others to repentance for the sake of their salvation:  When the prophet Nathan rebukes David for his adultery and murder.  David had not sinned against Nathan, but Nathan rebukes David nevertheless so that David might repent and be saved.

That's the example given in our rite of absolution.

"God it was who forgave David through Nathan the Prophet, when he confessed his sins, and Peter weeping bitterly for his denial, and the sinful woman in tears at his feet, and the Publican, and the Prodigal Son: May that same God forgive thee all things, through me a sinner, both in this present world, and in that which is to come, and set thee uncondemned before His dread Judgment Seat."

[Richard Johnson]

I don't really think it helps dialogue when we say things like "don't be intentionally obtuse" or "but you know that."

[Tom Eckstein]

I don't really think it helps dialogue when we say things like "don't be intentionally obtuse" or "but you know that."

Richard, I agree.  I will strive to do better.  I will edit my previous posts.