Author Topic: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?  (Read 2464 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2021, 02:53:40 PM »
Some words and sentences have clear meanings, Peter, and "inferring," that is interpreting the sentences in context, considering source, topic, previous writings, etc. etc., is standard literary criticism.
But my apologies again for intentionally turning down the street where the sign clearly read "Dead End."
Carry on. What Pastor Preus or I think of adoption by gay couples is irrelevant here.
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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2021, 04:23:25 PM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2021, 05:03:50 PM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2021, 07:31:53 PM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.


I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others. It was written to convict each of us of our own unrighteousness; and our need for Jesus.


In fact, Paul begins Romans 2: "So every single one of you who judge others is without any excuse. you condemn yourself when you judge another person because the one who is judging is doing the same things." (CEB)
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

RDPreus

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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2021, 10:49:46 PM »
"I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others."

Does this mean that a preacher may not preach on this text?  Or if he does, must his sermon be a mea culpa? 

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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2021, 11:38:16 PM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.


I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others. It was written to convict each of us of our own unrighteousness; and our need for Jesus.


In fact, Paul begins Romans 2: "So every single one of you who judge others is without any excuse. you condemn yourself when you judge another person because the one who is judging is doing the same things." (CEB)

Brian, in Romans chapters 1 & 2 Paul is NOT arguing: "We can't call others to repentance because we're all sinners who deserve God's wrath." Instead, Paul is pointing out that we can't call others to repentance as though they are sinners and we are NOT!  The notion that repentant Christians can't call the unrepentant to repentance and point out their particular sins that God condemns goes against the teaching of Jesus and the entire Old and New Testaments! 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 05:42:37 PM by Tom Eckstein »
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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2021, 11:14:57 AM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.


I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others. It was written to convict each of us of our own unrighteousness; and our need for Jesus.


In fact, Paul begins Romans 2: "So every single one of you who judge others is without any excuse. you condemn yourself when you judge another person because the one who is judging is doing the same things." (CEB)

Brian, in Romans chapters 1 & 2 Paul is NOT arguing: "We can't call others to repentance because we're all sinners who deserve God's wrath." Instead, Paul is pointing out that we can't call others to repentance as though they are sinners and we are NOT!  The notion that repentant Christians can't call the unrepentant to repentance and point out their particular sins that God condemns goes against the teaching of Jesus and the entire Old and New Testaments!  But, of course, you already know this.


Considering that Paul, in Romans, never uses μετανοέω; in fact, that word only occurs once in all of the Pauline epistles (2 Cor 12:21); and ματάνοια only occurs in Romans 2:4 and 2 Cor 7:9, 10; it's difficult to push that Paul's call for repentance is a major theme in his letters; or in Romans in particular.


Given your logic, I would like to point out to you that judging others brings condemnation on yourself (Romans 2:1-3; see also chapter 14; Matthew 7:1-2; Luke 6:37). Recognizing this sin; then what? Does repentance include an attempt to stop this sin? Does it mean you will refrain from judging others? Or, (as I suspect,) do you find reasons why your sin of judging others is justified and you continue doing it?


I recognize that I am judging you; but you gave me justification for doing so in your response above. As a repentant sinner, I'm free to point out the particular sins that God condemn and goes against the teachings of Jesus.



"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

RDPreus

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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2021, 11:47:11 AM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.


I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others. It was written to convict each of us of our own unrighteousness; and our need for Jesus.


In fact, Paul begins Romans 2: "So every single one of you who judge others is without any excuse. you condemn yourself when you judge another person because the one who is judging is doing the same things." (CEB)

Brian, in Romans chapters 1 & 2 Paul is NOT arguing: "We can't call others to repentance because we're all sinners who deserve God's wrath." Instead, Paul is pointing out that we can't call others to repentance as though they are sinners and we are NOT!  The notion that repentant Christians can't call the unrepentant to repentance and point out their particular sins that God condemns goes against the teaching of Jesus and the entire Old and New Testaments!  But, of course, you already know this.


Considering that Paul, in Romans, never uses μετανοέω; in fact, that word only occurs once in all of the Pauline epistles (2 Cor 12:21); and ματάνοια only occurs in Romans 2:4 and 2 Cor 7:9, 10; it's difficult to push that Paul's call for repentance is a major theme in his letters; or in Romans in particular.


Given your logic, I would like to point out to you that judging others brings condemnation on yourself (Romans 2:1-3; see also chapter 14; Matthew 7:1-2; Luke 6:37). Recognizing this sin; then what? Does repentance include an attempt to stop this sin? Does it mean you will refrain from judging others? Or, (as I suspect,) do you find reasons why your sin of judging others is justified and you continue doing it?


I recognize that I am judging you; but you gave me justification for doing so in your response above. As a repentant sinner, I'm free to point out the particular sins that God condemn and goes against the teachings of Jesus.





If you as a repentant sinner are free to point out the particular sins of others why can't other repentant sinners point out the particular sin of homosexual desires and activities as Paul does in Romans 1? 

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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2021, 12:28:33 PM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.


I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others. It was written to convict each of us of our own unrighteousness; and our need for Jesus.


In fact, Paul begins Romans 2: "So every single one of you who judge others is without any excuse. you condemn yourself when you judge another person because the one who is judging is doing the same things." (CEB)

Brian, in Romans chapters 1 & 2 Paul is NOT arguing: "We can't call others to repentance because we're all sinners who deserve God's wrath." Instead, Paul is pointing out that we can't call others to repentance as though they are sinners and we are NOT!  The notion that repentant Christians can't call the unrepentant to repentance and point out their particular sins that God condemns goes against the teaching of Jesus and the entire Old and New Testaments!  But, of course, you already know this.


Considering that Paul, in Romans, never uses μετανοέω; in fact, that word only occurs once in all of the Pauline epistles (2 Cor 12:21); and ματάνοια only occurs in Romans 2:4 and 2 Cor 7:9, 10; it's difficult to push that Paul's call for repentance is a major theme in his letters; or in Romans in particular.


Given your logic, I would like to point out to you that judging others brings condemnation on yourself (Romans 2:1-3; see also chapter 14; Matthew 7:1-2; Luke 6:37). Recognizing this sin; then what? Does repentance include an attempt to stop this sin? Does it mean you will refrain from judging others? Or, (as I suspect,) do you find reasons why your sin of judging others is justified and you continue doing it?


I recognize that I am judging you; but you gave me justification for doing so in your response above. As a repentant sinner, I'm free to point out the particular sins that God condemn and goes against the teachings of Jesus.





Brian, just because Paul does not use the specific word μετανοέω does NOT mean that in Romans he does not call sinners to agree with God that their sin is evil and deserves condemnation. 

In 1st Corinthians Paul has no problem "judging" the sin of the incestuous man not to mention "judging" various other sins in Corinth - and Paul does NOT consider himself to be sinning in doing so.  In fact, Paul teaches that the Corinthian congregation IS sinning via their pride in the incestuous man's sin rather than engaging in church discipline for the sake of this man's salvation.

The type of "judging" that Jesus and the apostles condemn is a self-righteous judging that fails to see one's own sin and fails to point others to Christ as the only Savior from sin.  But in NO place in the NT does Jesus or the apostles teach that we should NOT rebuke particular sins in other people.  In fact, both Jesus and the apostles stress that we SHOULD rebuke sin in other people so that they might repent and receive forgiveness in Christ. (Matthew 18:15-20; Luke 17:3 & 24:47; Acts 3:26; Acts 8:22-23; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5 [where Paul rebukes the UNrepentant for their self-righteous judging]; Romans 6:12-13; Romans 13:12-13; Romans 16:17-18; 1st Corinthians 5:1-13; 1st Corinthians 6:9-10; 1st Corinthians 10:1-14; 1st Corinthians 14:37-38; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:1-2; Ephesians 5:3-17; Colossians 3:5-10; 1st Thessalonians 4:1-8; 1st Timothy 1:3; 1st Timothy 1:19-20; 2nd Timothy 2:25-26; 2nd Timothy 3:1-17; 2nd Timothy 4:1-4; Titus 1:10-16; Titus 3:10-11; James 5:19-20; 1st Peter 4:1-6; 2nd Peter 2:1-22; 1st John 2:3-29; 1st John 4:1-6; 2nd John 8-11; 3rd John 9-10; Jude 3-4)  I could list MANY MORE!

« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 05:43:39 PM by Tom Eckstein »
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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2021, 12:36:38 PM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.


I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others. It was written to convict each of us of our own unrighteousness; and our need for Jesus.


In fact, Paul begins Romans 2: "So every single one of you who judge others is without any excuse. you condemn yourself when you judge another person because the one who is judging is doing the same things." (CEB)

Brian, in Romans chapters 1 & 2 Paul is NOT arguing: "We can't call others to repentance because we're all sinners who deserve God's wrath." Instead, Paul is pointing out that we can't call others to repentance as though they are sinners and we are NOT!  The notion that repentant Christians can't call the unrepentant to repentance and point out their particular sins that God condemns goes against the teaching of Jesus and the entire Old and New Testaments!  But, of course, you already know this.


Considering that Paul, in Romans, never uses μετανοέω; in fact, that word only occurs once in all of the Pauline epistles (2 Cor 12:21); and ματάνοια only occurs in Romans 2:4 and 2 Cor 7:9, 10; it's difficult to push that Paul's call for repentance is a major theme in his letters; or in Romans in particular.


Given your logic, I would like to point out to you that judging others brings condemnation on yourself (Romans 2:1-3; see also chapter 14; Matthew 7:1-2; Luke 6:37). Recognizing this sin; then what? Does repentance include an attempt to stop this sin? Does it mean you will refrain from judging others? Or, (as I suspect,) do you find reasons why your sin of judging others is justified and you continue doing it?


I recognize that I am judging you; but you gave me justification for doing so in your response above. As a repentant sinner, I'm free to point out the particular sins that God condemn and goes against the teachings of Jesus.





If you as a repentant sinner are free to point out the particular sins of others why can't other repentant sinners point out the particular sin of homosexual desires and activities as Paul does in Romans 1?

Brian, you say that we sin if we "judge others," that is, point out particular sins in their life and their need to repent of them, and yet you write the following: "As a repentant sinner, I'm free to point out the particular sins that God condemn and goes against the teachings of Jesus." That's exactly what Rolf and I have been saying!  Jesus and the apostles clearly teach that repentant believers CAN and MUST rebuke sins in others so that they might repent and receive salvation in Christ.  So, your point about Paul in Romans 1 & 2 saying that repentant sinners shouldn't "judge others" is refuted by your own words!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 05:45:10 PM by Tom Eckstein »
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Charles Austin

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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2021, 12:43:51 PM »
There is a difference, I think, between calling out the sins of others and "judging" others in terms of their faith and relationship with God and the Christian community.
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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2021, 12:49:50 PM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.


I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others. It was written to convict each of us of our own unrighteousness; and our need for Jesus.


In fact, Paul begins Romans 2: "So every single one of you who judge others is without any excuse. you condemn yourself when you judge another person because the one who is judging is doing the same things." (CEB)

Brian, in Romans chapters 1 & 2 Paul is NOT arguing: "We can't call others to repentance because we're all sinners who deserve God's wrath." Instead, Paul is pointing out that we can't call others to repentance as though they are sinners and we are NOT!  The notion that repentant Christians can't call the unrepentant to repentance and point out their particular sins that God condemns goes against the teaching of Jesus and the entire Old and New Testaments!  But, of course, you already know this.


Considering that Paul, in Romans, never uses μετανοέω; in fact, that word only occurs once in all of the Pauline epistles (2 Cor 12:21); and ματάνοια only occurs in Romans 2:4 and 2 Cor 7:9, 10; it's difficult to push that Paul's call for repentance is a major theme in his letters; or in Romans in particular.


Given your logic, I would like to point out to you that judging others brings condemnation on yourself (Romans 2:1-3; see also chapter 14; Matthew 7:1-2; Luke 6:37). Recognizing this sin; then what? Does repentance include an attempt to stop this sin? Does it mean you will refrain from judging others? Or, (as I suspect,) do you find reasons why your sin of judging others is justified and you continue doing it?


I recognize that I am judging you; but you gave me justification for doing so in your response above. As a repentant sinner, I'm free to point out the particular sins that God condemn and goes against the teachings of Jesus.





If you as a repentant sinner are free to point out the particular sins of others why can't other repentant sinners point out the particular sin of homosexual desires and activities as Paul does in Romans 1?


Just as long as you also point out the particular sin of heterosexual desires and activities as Jesus' does in Matthew 5. Oh, and you should also point out all the other particular sins Paul talks about in Romans 1. Most of them are more likely to be found among members of our congregations.
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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2021, 12:51:35 PM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.


I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others. It was written to convict each of us of our own unrighteousness; and our need for Jesus.


In fact, Paul begins Romans 2: "So every single one of you who judge others is without any excuse. you condemn yourself when you judge another person because the one who is judging is doing the same things." (CEB)

Brian, in Romans chapters 1 & 2 Paul is NOT arguing: "We can't call others to repentance because we're all sinners who deserve God's wrath." Instead, Paul is pointing out that we can't call others to repentance as though they are sinners and we are NOT!  The notion that repentant Christians can't call the unrepentant to repentance and point out their particular sins that God condemns goes against the teaching of Jesus and the entire Old and New Testaments!  But, of course, you already know this.


Considering that Paul, in Romans, never uses μετανοέω; in fact, that word only occurs once in all of the Pauline epistles (2 Cor 12:21); and ματάνοια only occurs in Romans 2:4 and 2 Cor 7:9, 10; it's difficult to push that Paul's call for repentance is a major theme in his letters; or in Romans in particular.


Given your logic, I would like to point out to you that judging others brings condemnation on yourself (Romans 2:1-3; see also chapter 14; Matthew 7:1-2; Luke 6:37). Recognizing this sin; then what? Does repentance include an attempt to stop this sin? Does it mean you will refrain from judging others? Or, (as I suspect,) do you find reasons why your sin of judging others is justified and you continue doing it?


I recognize that I am judging you; but you gave me justification for doing so in your response above. As a repentant sinner, I'm free to point out the particular sins that God condemn and goes against the teachings of Jesus.





If you as a repentant sinner are free to point out the particular sins of others why can't other repentant sinners point out the particular sin of homosexual desires and activities as Paul does in Romans 1?

Brian, as Rolf noted, you are confused!  You say that we sin if we "judge others," that is, point out particular sins in their life and their need to repent of them, and yet you write the following: "As a repentant sinner, I'm free to point out the particular sins that God condemn and goes against the teachings of Jesus." That's exactly what Rolf and I have been saying!  Jesus and the apostles clearly teach that repentant believers CAN and MUST rebuke sins in others so that they might repent and receive salvation in Christ.  So, your nonsense about Paul in Romans 1 & 2 saying that repentant sinners shouldn't "judge others" is refuted by your own words!


Yup, cause RD said I could. (He would probably go further and say that we should judge the particular sins of others.)
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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2021, 12:59:26 PM »
So what do you finally accuse them of, Pastor Preus? Hypocrisy? Heresy? Immorality?
Give us a scale.
You say they cannot possibly be showing the love of Jesus. So on which charge - as judge and jury- do you convict them?

God's Word teaches us that homosexuality is an abomination that falls under the wrath of God.  Read Romans 1:18-27.  For a nominally "Christian" organization to entrust to homosexual couples the care of little children is an offense against God and the children.  I do not convict them of anything.  God's Word condemns them.  God will punish them because He loves the little children.


Romans 1 makes the point that all of us are under the same wrath of God. None of us are righteous.

That's right.  None of us is righteous.  We all need to repent and believe the gospel that gives us the righteousness of Christ.


I think that it's a misuse of Romans 1 when it is used to point out the unrighteousness of others. It was written to convict each of us of our own unrighteousness; and our need for Jesus.


In fact, Paul begins Romans 2: "So every single one of you who judge others is without any excuse. you condemn yourself when you judge another person because the one who is judging is doing the same things." (CEB)

Brian, in Romans chapters 1 & 2 Paul is NOT arguing: "We can't call others to repentance because we're all sinners who deserve God's wrath." Instead, Paul is pointing out that we can't call others to repentance as though they are sinners and we are NOT!  The notion that repentant Christians can't call the unrepentant to repentance and point out their particular sins that God condemns goes against the teaching of Jesus and the entire Old and New Testaments!  But, of course, you already know this.


Considering that Paul, in Romans, never uses μετανοέω; in fact, that word only occurs once in all of the Pauline epistles (2 Cor 12:21); and ματάνοια only occurs in Romans 2:4 and 2 Cor 7:9, 10; it's difficult to push that Paul's call for repentance is a major theme in his letters; or in Romans in particular.


Given your logic, I would like to point out to you that judging others brings condemnation on yourself (Romans 2:1-3; see also chapter 14; Matthew 7:1-2; Luke 6:37). Recognizing this sin; then what? Does repentance include an attempt to stop this sin? Does it mean you will refrain from judging others? Or, (as I suspect,) do you find reasons why your sin of judging others is justified and you continue doing it?


I recognize that I am judging you; but you gave me justification for doing so in your response above. As a repentant sinner, I'm free to point out the particular sins that God condemn and goes against the teachings of Jesus.





If you as a repentant sinner are free to point out the particular sins of others why can't other repentant sinners point out the particular sin of homosexual desires and activities as Paul does in Romans 1?


Just as long as you also point out the particular sin of heterosexual desires and activities as Jesus' does in Matthew 5. Oh, and you should also point out all the other particular sins Paul talks about in Romans 1. Most of them are more likely to be found among members of our congregations.

Brian, of course we should also condemn all heterosexual behavior outside of one man/one woman marriage as well as all the other sins Paul condemns in Romans chapter 1.  But that's NOT what you said earlier.  You said Paul was condemning judging as being a sin (even though Paul was "judging" in sayin so!) and you failed to make the distinction between "self-righteous judging" (failing to see one's own sin and failing to point sinners to Christ) versus the kind of godly judging for the sake of saving others which Jesus actually COMMANDS that we repentant sinners do!  But it now appears that you agree with Rolf and me that godly judging is NOT sinful and that God actually expects us to do it.  Glad you agree with us!
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Sex. Gender. What's the Difference?
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2021, 01:17:33 PM »
Brian, just because Paul does not use the specific word μετανοέω does NOT mean that in Romans he does not call sinners to agree with God that their sin is evil and deserves condemnation.  In fact, you know Paul does this!  So stop playing games.


Paul also sees himself constantly under God's judgment (as well his his own) in Romans 7. He cannot stop sinning.

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In 1st Corinthians Paul has no problem "judging" the sin of the incestuous man not to mention "judging" various other sins in Corinth - and Paul does NOT consider himself to be sinning in doing so.  In fact, Paul teaches that the Corinthian congregation IS sinning via their pride in the incestuous man's sin rather than engaging in church discipline for the sake of this man's salvation.


The judgment there, as well as in Matthew 18, is about sins against other people within the church. "If a brother sins against you."


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The type of "judging" that Jesus and the apostles condemn is a self-righteous judging that fails to see one's own sin and fails to point others to Christ as the only Savior from sin.  But in NO place in the NT does Jesus or the apostles teach that we should NOT rebuke particular sins in other people.  In fact, both Jesus and the apostles stress that we SHOULD rebuke sin in other people so that they might repent and receive forgiveness in Christ. (Matthew 18:15-20; Luke 17:3 & 24:47; Acts 3:26; Acts 8:22-23; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5 [where Paul rebukes the UNrepentant for their self-righteous judging]; Romans 6:12-13; Romans 13:12-13; Romans 16:17-18; 1st Corinthians 5:1-13; 1st Corinthians 6:9-10; 1st Corinthians 10:1-14; 1st Corinthians 14:37-38; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:1-2; Ephesians 5:3-17; Colossians 3:5-10; 1st Thessalonians 4:1-8; 1st Timothy 1:3; 1st Timothy 1:19-20; 2nd Timothy 2:25-26; 2nd Timothy 3:1-17; 2nd Timothy 4:1-4; Titus 1:10-16; Titus 3:10-11; James 5:19-20; 1st Peter 4:1-6; 2nd Peter 2:1-22; 1st John 2:3-29; 1st John 4:1-6; 2nd John 8-11; 3rd John 9-10; Jude 3-4)  I could list MANY MORE!

But again, you already know this.


Yup, I knew that you would find a way to justify judging other people. (I don't see Paul stating in Romans 2 that repentant sinners are free the the judgment he makes against judging.) I see it more as saying that we do not have the ability to judge as God judges. And as sinful people, we are just as likely to be wrong about our rebukes (see Matthew 16:22; 19:13; 20:31 when the disciples' rebukes were misguided). I'm also quite aware of the parable of the weeds and wheat - that the servants judgment against the weeds; as correct as it might have been, would have done more damage than if they had left them alone and left the judgment up to God at the last days.


Most often, e.g., Matthew 18; 1 Corinthians, we must judge and seek to remove behaviors that are detrimental to the Christian community. "If a brother sins against you" (Matthew 18:15). The issues there about church discipline are the sins we commit against each other.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]