Author Topic: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?  (Read 2487 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2021, 05:38:56 PM »
Pastor Engebretsen:
Thinking from a Catholic perspective (or any for that matter), I wonder how they would want "public policy" determined.
Me:
Not from the specific tenets of a specific religious faith or practice. Remember prohibition?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2021, 06:00:30 PM »
Pastor Engebretsen:
Thinking from a Catholic perspective (or any for that matter), I wonder how they would want "public policy" determined.
Me:
Not from the specific tenets of a specific religious faith or practice. Remember prohibition?
The moral and legal foundation of abolition should be the moral and legal foundation of prohibiting abortion.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2021, 06:14:15 PM »
I don't think that you can entirely divorce the moral convictions of faith from the moral convictions of a society in general.  However, it is clear that our culture and society has become more and more secular over the decades with a ethical approach that could be described as moral relativism.  Even people who identify themselves with a given faith would probably describe their own ethical/moral approach this way: there is no real objective right or wrong, except as I define it for myself.  Yet, that is not entirely true as some in society are introducing certain ethical convictions, apart from religious tenants, that hold a non-negotiable status.  If violated, or if perceived to be violated, public shaming is introduced.  Some of it is couched as science or science-based, although even within science there is not always complete consensus.  But if the conviction is clothed in scientific terms it is given legitimacy which cannot be easily questioned or challenged. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2021, 06:15:49 PM »
When a pregnant woman believes that she cannot meet her child's needs, abortion becomes an option.


Thinking this morning, it's the "black and white" thinking about abortion that I probably object most to, e.g., abortion is wrong. They should never happen. Life is messier than that. Abortion is wrong; but sometimes it's a necessary evil. Divorce is wrong, but sometimes it's a necessary evil. Marrying a divorced person is wrong, but sometimes it is a really good thing. Killing other human beings is wrong, but sometimes it becomes necessary.


Some, even in this forum, state that it's impossible to be pro-choice and anti-abortion; but I see that as the ELCA's position; and the position of many of my colleagues that I've talked to about this.


Can you say that sometimes abortions are necessary evils?


What about encouraging the use of contraceptives to reduce the number of abortions? Among other things, the availability of free contraceptives in Colorado has reduced the number of abortions.

Going back to my original observation, I notice that you addressed the question again without any reference to the value of the life of the one aborted.  I assume that "necessary evil" means discounting the value of the life in question over against the woman's right to choose, or over against her need not to be inconvenienced or challenged?


I referred to the person in the womb as "child". I used a parallel illustration of killing human beings (living people), which is sometimes seen as collateral damage in a war. (The government doesn't call it "killing civilians.")


Do you believe that some abortions are "necessary evils"?

Quote
The primary issue at stake, at least for me, is a question of life.


Certainly the cells are alive. The sperm and egg had to be alive before they came together. The question throughout the ages has been "viable life." Until that point in its development, those human cells are a parasite by definition: "an organism that lives in … another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense." Without the mother, the baby has no life prior to the age of viability. As of yet, we cannot grow a human outside of a woman's womb. We can cause a conception to happen - bring sperm and egg together in the lab, but without the human host, the embryo dies. Understanding the beginning of human life is messy.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2021, 06:19:05 PM »
In my experience, Roman Catholics tend to be more loyal to their church while Lutherans are more loyal to their doctrine.  When we Lutherans try to understand how a Roman Catholic can be pro-choice on abortion we should keep this in mind.  I assume that President Biden loves his mother, the Roman Catholic Church.  She may err here and there and lack a sufficiently progressive social conscience, but she's still his mother.  Honor your mother.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with her about everything.

Aye, but how does partaking of the Sacraments honor mother Church--much less God our Father and His Son--when one is not in communion with the teachings of the Church?           


The same way one can disagree with mother, but go to her house for meals every Sunday (or on holidays). It's the gathering of the family; not necessarily a gathering of like-minded siblings.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2021, 06:23:23 PM »
In my experience, Roman Catholics tend to be more loyal to their church while Lutherans are more loyal to their doctrine.  When we Lutherans try to understand how a Roman Catholic can be pro-choice on abortion we should keep this in mind.  I assume that President Biden loves his mother, the Roman Catholic Church.  She may err here and there and lack a sufficiently progressive social conscience, but she's still his mother.  Honor your mother.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with her about everything.

Aye, but how does partaking of the Sacraments honor mother Church--much less God our Father and His Son--when one is not in communion with the teachings of the Church?           

Yes, but you must understand that the teachings of the Church evolve in accordance with new insight provided by the Holy Spirit and we must remain open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  :)


Well, we do have God on his throne stating: "Behold, I am making all things new" or if you prefer: "Ἰδοὺ καινὰ ποιῶ πάντα." (Rev. 21:5). It is a present tense verb; not the future new heaven and new earth.


We also have Jesus stating that the Spirit of Truth will continue to teach us, because he was not able to give us all the truth (John 16:12).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 06:25:37 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

D. Engebretson

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2021, 06:26:09 PM »
Certainly the cells are alive. The sperm and egg had to be alive before they came together. The question throughout the ages has been "viable life." Until that point in its development, those human cells are a parasite by definition: "an organism that lives in … another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense." Without the mother, the baby has no life prior to the age of viability. As of yet, we cannot grow a human outside of a woman's womb. We can cause a conception to happen - bring sperm and egg together in the lab, but without the human host, the embryo dies. Understanding the beginning of human life is messy.

Do you believe that the scriptures describe unborn life this way? To they view such life as parasitic? Do the scriptures describe the value of unborn or pre-born life in terms of viability?

Also, how far do you take the idea of "viable life," that is, life that can live without support from another, as in those on life support equipment, or those in comatose states?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

RDPreus

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2021, 06:36:37 PM »
In my experience, Roman Catholics tend to be more loyal to their church while Lutherans are more loyal to their doctrine.  When we Lutherans try to understand how a Roman Catholic can be pro-choice on abortion we should keep this in mind.  I assume that President Biden loves his mother, the Roman Catholic Church.  She may err here and there and lack a sufficiently progressive social conscience, but she's still his mother.  Honor your mother.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with her about everything.

Aye, but how does partaking of the Sacraments honor mother Church--much less God our Father and His Son--when one is not in communion with the teachings of the Church?           

Yes, but you must understand that the teachings of the Church evolve in accordance with new insight provided by the Holy Spirit and we must remain open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  :)


Well, we do have God on his throne stating: "Behold, I am making all things new" or if you prefer: "Ἰδοὺ καινὰ ποιῶ πάντα." (Rev. 21:5). It is a present tense verb; not the future new heaven and new earth.


We also have Jesus stating that the Spirit of Truth will continue to teach us, because he was not able to give us all the truth (John 16:12).

Wasn't Jesus speaking to his apostles?  Didn't the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth just as Jesus promised He would?  And didn't they write it down in the New Testament, the apostolic Scriptures? 

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2021, 06:48:04 PM »
In my experience, Roman Catholics tend to be more loyal to their church while Lutherans are more loyal to their doctrine.  When we Lutherans try to understand how a Roman Catholic can be pro-choice on abortion we should keep this in mind.  I assume that President Biden loves his mother, the Roman Catholic Church.  She may err here and there and lack a sufficiently progressive social conscience, but she's still his mother.  Honor your mother.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with her about everything.

Aye, but how does partaking of the Sacraments honor mother Church--much less God our Father and His Son--when one is not in communion with the teachings of the Church?           

Yes, but you must understand that the teachings of the Church evolve in accordance with new insight provided by the Holy Spirit and we must remain open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  :)

As in the UCC's  , logo and "God is still speaking"?

Right.  /s


Or sometimes phrased: "Don't put a period where God has a comma."
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2021, 06:53:06 PM »

We also have Jesus stating that the Spirit of Truth will continue to teach us, because he was not able to give us all the truth (John 16:12).

Wasn't Jesus speaking to his apostles?  Didn't the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth just as Jesus promised He would?  And didn't they write it down in the New Testament, the apostolic Scriptures?

Some Byzantine Iconographers write the pendentive Icon of St. John the Evangelist dictating to the Deacon Procorus with a nimbus of the Holy Spirit above and behind the Evangelist's right shoulder.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2021, 07:46:29 PM »
In my experience, Roman Catholics tend to be more loyal to their church while Lutherans are more loyal to their doctrine.  When we Lutherans try to understand how a Roman Catholic can be pro-choice on abortion we should keep this in mind.  I assume that President Biden loves his mother, the Roman Catholic Church.  She may err here and there and lack a sufficiently progressive social conscience, but she's still his mother.  Honor your mother.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with her about everything.

Aye, but how does partaking of the Sacraments honor mother Church--much less God our Father and His Son--when one is not in communion with the teachings of the Church?           

Yes, but you must understand that the teachings of the Church evolve in accordance with new insight provided by the Holy Spirit and we must remain open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  :)

As in the UCC's  , logo and "God is still speaking"?

Right.  /s


Or sometimes phrased: "Don't put a period where God has a comma."
Don't put a question mark where God has spoken in the indicative or the imperative.

Rev Geminn

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2021, 10:45:51 AM »
Quote
I’m not entirely sure how to process all of this but I must confess that much of the rejuvenation of my faith in these last few years came from what might be dubbed the “Catholic Left.”  Dorothy Day, the Berrigan Brothers, Jim Douglas, Jim Martin, Pope Francis and others.

Interesting.  How does that account for the claim among so many Roman Catholics that the so-called Catholic Left has also contributed more than its share to the empty pews, to the loss of confidence in the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and in the idea that religion is personal, individual, and church (mass) optional?

Larry,

That struck me as a rather strange response to what I wrote.  I was not somehow arguing or advocating for the rightness of the Catholic Left.  Just speaking to how they have personally influenced me. I’ve also enjoyed Pope Benedict's work, particularly his “The Spirit of the Liturgy.”  I don’t really have any skin in that game, so to say.  I can say that I get a little uncomfortable when I see Lutherans cozying up to Cardinal Burke, considering he’s all about going back to the Latin Mass and shunning Vatican 2.  Then again, I’m sure there is some value in his movement and concerns, standing as a corrective to the extremes of the Catholic Left.

Peace,
Scott+

David Garner

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2021, 11:00:30 AM »

We also have Jesus stating that the Spirit of Truth will continue to teach us, because he was not able to give us all the truth (John 16:12).

Wasn't Jesus speaking to his apostles?  Didn't the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth just as Jesus promised He would?  And didn't they write it down in the New Testament, the apostolic Scriptures?

Some Byzantine Iconographers write the pendentive Icon of St. John the Evangelist dictating to the Deacon Procorus with a nimbus of the Holy Spirit above and behind the Evangelist's right shoulder.

I used this icon as an example of why my professor was wrong (you can guess which one) when he said the 4 Gospels were written by people other than the Apostles to whom they are attributed. 

My pitch was simple -- this is the Tradition of the Church.  Who am I to step in and say St. John did not dictate the Gospel to St. Procorus?  For that matter, who is anyone else to do so, particularly on such flimsy evidence as higher criticism?
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Rob Morris

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2021, 11:24:37 AM »
In my experience, Roman Catholics tend to be more loyal to their church while Lutherans are more loyal to their doctrine.  When we Lutherans try to understand how a Roman Catholic can be pro-choice on abortion we should keep this in mind.  I assume that President Biden loves his mother, the Roman Catholic Church.  She may err here and there and lack a sufficiently progressive social conscience, but she's still his mother.  Honor your mother.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with her about everything.

Aye, but how does partaking of the Sacraments honor mother Church--much less God our Father and His Son--when one is not in communion with the teachings of the Church?           

Yes, but you must understand that the teachings of the Church evolve in accordance with new insight provided by the Holy Spirit and we must remain open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  :)

As in the UCC's  , logo and "God is still speaking"?

Right.  /s


Or sometimes phrased: "Don't put a period where God has a comma."
Don't put a question mark where God has spoken in the indicative or the imperative.

And don't put a comma where God has placed a period.

Dave Benke

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Re: Douthat: The political ascendancy of liberal catholicism?
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2021, 02:57:04 PM »
The title of the book you dudes are writing is

GODLY GRAMMAR or, if you need a second

PRINCIPLED PUNCTUATION:
Providentially Provided Powerfully Positive Perspectives on Punctuation

Based on the Adiaphoristic Controversy, I would hazard the guess that following God's lead,  we Orthodox Lutherans should be loath to use the question mark.  Because there are very few open questions.  If any.  Liturgia non adiaphora est, viz.

Dave Benke