Author Topic: The Church's Response to Government and Governing  (Read 13043 times)

mariemeyer

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #180 on: January 19, 2021, 03:05:24 PM »
Read on, Pastor Speckhard, read all of Lincoln on this subject.  In his summation, Abraham Lincoln said:  "Passion has helped us; but can do no more.  It will in future be our enemy.  Reason, cold, calculating, unimpassioned reason, must furnish all  the materials for our future support and defence.  Let those materials be moulded into general intelligence, sound morality and in particular a reverence for the constitution and laws..."   The problem is that the mob which entered the Capitol wanted to overthrow the due process of the laws of the land.  The mob action was based on a lie, that the election of Joe Biden was invalid.  I think that the repudiation of the lie would be a necessary first step which would then lead on to unity.
Yes, I've read Lincoln. And I agree with him on this for the most part. I wish you did, too, and not just when people you hate are misbehaving.

It should be noted that Lincoln flagrantly disregarded the constitution and his government refused to seat electors he didn't think had been validly elected, so there is a lot more to the story than just everyone agreeing with his words.   

 

The above post suggests that Norman Teigen's agreement with Lincoln wrote is limited to "just when people you hate are misbehaving."    Unless I misinterpret the post, I ask, "On what basis does the moderator imply that a post written on the ALPB Forum was written out of hatred for anyone?"  I thought the ALBP online Forum was to avoid judging the motives of people.   

Dan Fienen

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #181 on: January 19, 2021, 03:48:00 PM »
Peter writes:
I would not have condoned breaching the Capitol even for symbolic reasons, but I would advice treading lightly with the assumptions about who was justified in doing what at a time of great cultural division.
I comment:
You would not have condoned breaching the Capitol, Peter, but I sense you believe that others might validly condone doing that.
As for “assumptions about who was justified“, here’s my assumption. Nothing in today’s situation justified the attack on our capital. Nothing. Nothing at all.I assume that those who attacked our Capitol  were intent on stopping the Congress from doing its job of certifying the election. That makes them and anyone who supports them or goes easy on them insurrectionists, possibly guilty of sedition, and serious threats to our democracy.
Does anyone here assume these people were acting in good faith, that they had a good cause? And does anyone here believe that something other than the words of the president inspired them to do this?
Could you point out where in his speech, President Trump told the people to violently break into the Capitol? Staging peaceful protests are a protected form of speech even if you do not agree with the cause that is being protested. Encouraging protests is not the same as encouraging insurrection, even if you disagree with the protests complaint.


There appears to be ample evidence that several groups prepared and planned to breech the Capitol and that these groups are planning further armed incursions not only in Washington D.C. but in other state capitals around the nation. This does not seem to have been a peaceful protest that was stirred up by violent rhetoric by the main speaker, got out of hand, and erupted in violence because of the speaker. The violence was planned and prepared for ahead of time by extremist groups and they planned to use Trump's rally as the occasion for their violence and probably hoping to draw cannon fodder from the protest.  So yes, I think that there was something other than the words of the President inspiring them to do this.


Extremist groups, White Nationalists and right wing extremist groups and "militias" existed long before Trump came on the scene and have planned and committed violence long before Trump contested the 2020 election. He did not inspire these groups to form or plot violence.


I do agree that Trump has been intemperate in his speech, has handled loosing the election very poorly, and reacted poorly and tardily to the violence. But the evidence seems to be against the narrative that this was a spontaneous uprising sparked by Trump's speech. Violent extremists have opportunistically taken advantage of the situation. Similarly, there was evidence this past summer that extremists plotted to take advantage of mainly peaceful protests this summer to promote violence and destruction.
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Norman Teigen

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #182 on: January 19, 2021, 04:30:12 PM »
Just in from my afternoon hike.  It was 15 degrees with a 15 mph NW wind.  This was the first thing I read:    “ 'The mob was fed lies,' Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said Tuesday in remarks on the Senate floor. 'They were provoked by the president and other powerful people.'

"President Trump, who has refused to concede his loss, repeated baseless allegations of widespread voter fraud for months and said the election was rigged. Numerous Republicans echoed the president’s claims."
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Charles Austin

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #183 on: January 19, 2021, 04:42:04 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
Could you point out where in his speech, President Trump told the people to violently break into the Capitol?
Me:
Yes, but it’s not only his “speech,” and I would rather let the impeachment trial make the case. Stay tuned.
BTW Senator McConnell said the president provoked the mob.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 05:05:51 PM by Charles Austin »
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D. Engebretson

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #184 on: January 19, 2021, 05:01:06 PM »
I realize the focus on Trump will remain even after he officially leaves office as of noon tomorrow.  And if the Senate does launch a trial, and that is yet to be determined as truly constitutional, even Biden wants to see them divide their legislative efforts between that and his agenda. I think the Democrats risk taking their focus off of their flag-bearer if they become too obsessed over burying Trump in a political grave. 

Personally I am now much more interested in Biden and his agenda for the next couple of years, and especially for the next 100 days, and more so as it impacts the church.  Trump's Twitter platform was removed and his voice is now, comparatively speaking, muted.  Biden's is only begun.  His agenda is ambitious, to say the least, and I don't think it overstates the case to say that he wishes for a much more expansive government presence in all of our lives.  As a conservative I am more in favor of limiting governmental authority, not expanding it.  This has bearing not only on private enterprise (such as the economy, which is another thread topic), but on the private non-profit sector, such as the church.  I am genuinely concerned that in an effort to placate those left of him he will allow that governmental reach further into the world of faith. During the pandemic we have already seen a tension as Democratic governors took the lead in a much more draconian approach to health precautions, leading the way in expansive lock-downs especially, which directly impacted churches.  Many have noted this as an infringement on the church's freedom and chastised those who seemly relinquished their rights so easily.  While I think that the thin margin of majority for the Democrats will limit their ambitions to some degree, I realize that they are very aware that they control all branches. 

Some of the items on Biden's initial 'to do' list don't concern me greatly.  I certainly support a more robust and directed approach to the pandemic, especially in terms of vaccine availability. There are economic issues that concern me, but this thread is for the church's response to government and governing, so I'll refrain from drifting there.  I am a bit concerned that Biden will assume a FDR type of approach of governmental expanse, using the current health crisis as an excuse much the way FDR used the Great Depression. 

« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 05:03:34 PM by D. Engebretson »
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Norman Teigen

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #186 on: January 19, 2021, 06:00:21 PM »
This morning when I hopped on to ALPB I saw Pastor Engebretson's comments re reconciliation and unity.  I posted the Lincoln info as a step towards healing and reconciliation.  If we can agree on some basics, then we might be able to move forward.  If we  can agree that the rioters and Trump based their words and actions on a lie, then the path towards healing, reconciliation, and unity can begin.  The lie about the election is the barrier.  The lie  denies what Lincoln said in 1838 and which I asserted is still relevant today.   Admit  the lie.
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Charles Austin

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #187 on: January 19, 2021, 06:03:52 PM »
We are going to have to fact check that speech, Peter, before we can decide what we think about it. Four years of experience suggests that it is packed with a lot of misstatements and outright lies.
And I noticed that your post comes from what appears to be a Trumpist website.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

DeHall1

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #188 on: January 19, 2021, 06:23:13 PM »
We are going to have to fact check that speech, Peter, before we can decide what we think about it. Four years of experience suggests that it is packed with a lot of misstatements and outright lies.
And I noticed that your post comes from what appears to be a Trumpist website.

The video of the speech is at the bottom of the article.

peter_speckhard

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #189 on: January 19, 2021, 06:43:57 PM »
This morning when I hopped on to ALPB I saw Pastor Engebretson's comments re reconciliation and unity.  I posted the Lincoln info as a step towards healing and reconciliation.  If we can agree on some basics, then we might be able to move forward.  If we  can agree that the rioters and Trump based their words and actions on a lie, then the path towards healing, reconciliation, and unity can begin.  The lie about the election is the barrier.  The lie  denies what Lincoln said in 1838 and which I asserted is still relevant today.   Admit  the lie.
Nobody here has said a word of support for rioters. I’ve said multiple times they should be prosecuted, like all rioters and looters. This is another example of the real battle being control of the narrative. Your guy won. He will be inaugurated. But that isn’t enough for you. You need to feel vindicated in how people tell the story of how you have behaved these past four years. After the attitude you displayed toward the previous administration, what makes you think unity with you is such a tempting offer? Really, you’ll let me join with the pussy-hat wearing, collusion hoax believing, Walmart looting, Seattle occupying resistance in a new, healed nation now that leftists are in power? Hard pass. We’ll continue be on opposite sides of a cultural divide regardless of what Trump or any of his supporters say or do now that he is leaving office. Biden will be president. I’m not going to stoop to the level of people who’ve been in “Not my president,” or “Resist,” mode these last few years. They aren’t worth bothering with. Biden will be president. He will likely be a bad president, but what can you do? I’ll vote against him next time, and in the meantime live as a Christian under bad political leadership. Nothing new about that.

peter_speckhard

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #190 on: January 19, 2021, 06:45:04 PM »
We are going to have to fact check that speech, Peter, before we can decide what we think about it. Four years of experience suggests that it is packed with a lot of misstatements and outright lies.
And I noticed that your post comes from what appears to be a Trumpist website.

The video of the speech is at the bottom of the article.
But the video was taken with Trumpist cameras. You can’t be too careful.

Terry W Culler

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #191 on: January 19, 2021, 07:21:04 PM »
I thought a decision had been made to avoid all of these political discussions unless there was some sort of theological issue.  :-\
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peter_speckhard

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Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« Reply #192 on: January 19, 2021, 07:49:04 PM »
I thought a decision had been made to avoid all of these political discussions unless there was some sort of theological issue.  :-\
True. I’ll lock the thread.