Author Topic: One step forward, maybe?  (Read 5409 times)

Randy Bosch

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2021, 06:45:25 PM »
My original intent, perhaps unclear, was to address the next 10 days. There is chatter about gathering in Washington for more rioting and violence. I had hoped that those who have some sway over those who might riot or do violence would agree to tell them to stop planning it. To stay home. To show some respect for those who will be our new leaders.
Republicans, from the Top Republican on down, are the only ones who can do this, who can address the potential rioters.

Peter writes:
A clean admission of partisan bias by the NYT, CNN, NPR et al admitting that are to left what Fox used to be to the right, and some acknowledgment of culpability (willing, not accidental) for the they role played in the ludicrous Russia stuff, and a clear denouncement of any media or institution seeking to silence or deplatform Trump supporters would go a long way toward restarting a healthy, vibrant, if sometimes ugly national conversation. Absent that, I think conservatives are more likely to just keep developing alternative media.
I say:
That’s not the issue close at hand.
If we do not ask those planning mischief in the next 10 days to stop it, I am very afraid about what might happen. We need clear, unequivocal words from Republican leadership. Now.

Certainly the next 10 days, but in both camps, clear and unequivocal.  The "long march", though, continues into an increasingly dark looking secular future.  I don't find Rod Dreher to be on target a whole bunch, but even a stopped clock, you know.  His depressing look at the whole mess is worth slogging through (caution alert for nasty profanity from both QAnon types and Antifa types...) to find telling glimpses of the lead up and follow through from Wednesday:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/left-reichstag-fire-soft-totalitarianism-social-credit-system-live-not-by-lies/   .  Very challenging, listening to "both sides" when the extremists on both sides are apparently running the show.

Dave Benke

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2021, 06:52:58 PM »
My original intent, perhaps unclear, was to address the next 10 days. There is chatter about gathering in Washington for more rioting and violence. I had hoped that those who have some sway over those who might riot or do violence would agree to tell them to stop planning it. To stay home. To show some respect for those who will be our new leaders.
Republicans, from the Top Republican on down, are the only ones who can do this, who can address the potential rioters.

Peter writes:
A clean admission of partisan bias by the NYT, CNN, NPR et al admitting that are to left what Fox used to be to the right, and some acknowledgment of culpability (willing, not accidental) for the they role played in the ludicrous Russia stuff, and a clear denouncement of any media or institution seeking to silence or deplatform Trump supporters would go a long way toward restarting a healthy, vibrant, if sometimes ugly national conversation. Absent that, I think conservatives are more likely to just keep developing alternative media.
I say:
That’s not the issue close at hand.
If we do not ask those planning mischief in the next 10 days to stop it, I am very afraid about what might happen. We need clear, unequivocal words from Republican leadership. Now.

Certainly the next 10 days, but in both camps, clear and unequivocal.  The "long march", though, continues into an increasingly dark looking secular future.  I don't find Rod Dreher to be on target a whole bunch, but even a stopped clock, you know.  His depressing look at the whole mess is worth slogging through (caution alert for nasty profanity from both QAnon types and Antifa types...) to find telling glimpses of the lead up and follow through from Wednesday:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/left-reichstag-fire-soft-totalitarianism-social-credit-system-live-not-by-lies/   .  Very challenging, listening to "both sides" when the extremists on both sides are apparently running the show.

Interesting stuff.  I like this descriptor of Wednesday -  Beer Belly Putsch .  Except people died needlessly defending lies, as Dreher points out.

I have favored an active FBI weeding out right and left wing nut groups to stopping free speech.  I am definitely, however, of the opinion that Trump should not be on Twitter.  There's a difference between free speech and incitement, as we've just seen.

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2021, 07:02:48 PM »
I don’t think anyone cares if the house wastes its time. Not impeaching someone meaninglessly, twice, is not much of a concession. Admitting the illegal misuse of the federal bureaucracy with the Russia investigation would be more reciprocal.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2021, 07:30:13 PM »
Which goes to a point for alpb forum online.  I think we should pay people to argue for let's say a fifteen post back and forth, and then vote on who won.  The alpb board would set up the arguments based on polls and surveys - wearing masks, nuclear war, acceptable pronouns, etc.   We would publish the results, go on talk TV of any kind, and make a good deal of money for ALPB.  Our claim would be that in the 21st century, this is how we do evangelical theology.


We could make the arguments even more interesting and make it like formal competitive debates. Both sides would have to prepare pro and con arguments; and from week to week they wouldn't know which side they would have to present.

This is a good side hustle worth exploring.  Because the way this goes to market is:
21st Century Disputation:  Lutherans Debate the Divisions

It's a three year gig, and must be monetized to produce at least $1 million for the ALPB coffers.  Disputants apply from any walk of life (Randy Bosch/sem theologians/interesting deaconesses, etc) and must be able to debate both sides of any issue with both passion and reason.

So it could go PPV in the mid-term, but needs something out of the ordinary to get it going.  I would suggest
person a plays Tucker Carlson as a Lutheran arguing against X
person b plays Joe Scarborough as a Lutheran arguing for X

Then we put it on You Tube, and wait for the invites.  Begin and end with prayer.  And/or beer.

Dave Benke


And have men in blue paint judge the debate.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2021, 07:32:06 PM »
In the next ten days, I am not concerned for what is "reciprocal," or what is equally balanced. I only seek something which will diminish, slow down, or actually stop the violence that could come to Washington in the days ahead. And I believe that the only voices that carry weight when it comes to doing so are Republican voices, the higher up the Republican ladder the better.
My smile of the day:
When I heard that the president was going to Texas tomorrow and to "Alamo," like many, I thought he was going to The Alamo, not a border town far distant from there.
"He's going to the Alamo?" I asked Beloved Spouse. "Does he know that's a battle we lost?"
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2021, 07:32:42 PM »
I don’t think anyone cares if the house wastes its time. Not impeaching someone meaninglessly, twice, is not much of a concession. Admitting the illegal misuse of the federal bureaucracy with the Russia investigation would be more reciprocal.


The Russian investigation proved that Russia meddled. Indictments against Russians ensued. It wasn't a waste.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2021, 07:44:24 PM »
I don’t think anyone cares if the house wastes its time. Not impeaching someone meaninglessly, twice, is not much of a concession. Admitting the illegal misuse of the federal bureaucracy with the Russia investigation would be more reciprocal.


The Russian investigation proved that Russia meddled. Indictments against Russians ensued. It wasn't a waste.
Think what you like. That some Russians bought some Facebook ads was not worth investigating. It was a pure waste except as a political bludgeon against the administration, which had nothing to do with it. For that, it was marginally effective. And it shows how far away we are from just singing kum by yah together and all getting along. You can’t be the party of the Kavanaugh hearings and then pretend to care about dignity, cooperation, bipartisanship, and healing.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2021, 07:56:58 PM »
I don’t think anyone cares if the house wastes its time. Not impeaching someone meaninglessly, twice, is not much of a concession. Admitting the illegal misuse of the federal bureaucracy with the Russia investigation would be more reciprocal.


The Russian investigation proved that Russia meddled. Indictments against Russians ensued. It wasn't a waste.
Think what you like. That some Russians bought some Facebook ads was not worth investigating. It was a pure waste except as a political bludgeon against the administration, which had nothing to do with it. For that, it was marginally effective. And it shows how far away we are from just singing kum by yah together and all getting along. You can’t be the party of the Kavanaugh hearings and then pretend to care about dignity, cooperation, bipartisanship, and healing.


It was bad enough that our government indicted 12 Russians for voter interference. It was just Facebook ads, but hacking into into computers of the Clinton campaign, the Democratic National Committee, state election boards, and secretaries of several states.


You may think that that was a waste of time. I don't.


The partisanship of the Kavanaugh hearings was a response to the lack of any hearings for Garland. Reaping what has been sown still happens.


You can’t be the party of the Garland non-hearings and then pretend to care about dignity, cooperation, bipartisanship, and healing. Or the party of a dozen state lawmakers who participated in Wednesday's riots.


"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2021, 08:35:22 PM »
Cross posted from another thread:  This conversation is edging toward being eliminated under the new rules by the good cop moderator.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2021, 08:36:31 PM »

My smile of the day:


My smile of the week came the other day with a Facebook meme: "Mexico is now willing to pay for the wall. Canada wants one too."
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Dave Benke

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2021, 08:55:04 PM »
There was just a real nice interview with Angus King, the independent senator from Maine, on 60 minutes.  It threads the needle on the middle ground route, which King calls "eloquent listening."  Worth a look in terms of this thread on "one step forward."

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2021, 09:01:58 PM »
Smile of the week: I just read that the Ravens players who got flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct for stomping on the Titans logo on field after a big play in their victory earlier today said in the postgame  interviews that the stomp was about unity, not disrespect.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 09:44:42 PM by peter_speckhard »

JEdwards

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2021, 09:19:21 PM »
The capitol thing had no support from any conservative voice, at not anyone anyone listens to.
Derrick Evans, a then-Republican member of the WV House of Delegates, was arrested for his participation in the riot. Mr. Evans received over 8,000 votes in November.

Also, while no one in Trump’s inner circle specifically asked supporters to break into the Capitol, threaten Members of Congress, and commit vandalism, and kill a police officer, it’s hard to believe protestations of being “shocked, shocked” after the crowd was told to prepare for “combat”, to march to the Capitol, to “show strength”, and to never give up. Pastor Stoffregen has never, to my knowledge, specifically denied a single article of the Book of Concord, so if you want to assert that the riot had “no support” from Trump, I eagerly await your endorsement of Pastor Stoffregen as a thoroughly orthodox, confessional Lutheran.

Finally, Senator Sasse has said on the record that White House staffers told him that the President was “delighted” when the protesters stormed the Capitol:

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/8/22220840/sasse-trump-capitol-storming-impeachment?_gl=1*1h2d4ih*

« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 09:24:06 PM by JEdwards »

Charles Austin

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2021, 09:24:57 PM »
Which is why we need his voice to keep things calm and the days ahead.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

peter_speckhard

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Re: One step forward, maybe?
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2021, 09:32:15 PM »
The capitol thing had no support from any conservative voice, at not anyone anyone listens to.
Derrick Evans, a then-Republican member of the WV House of Delegates, was arrested for his participation in the riot. Mr. Evans received over 8,000 votes in November.

Also, while no one in Trump’s inner circle specifically asked supporters to break into the Capitol, threaten Members of Congress, and commit vandalism, and kill a police officer, it’s hard to believe protestations of being “shocked, shocked” after the crowd was told to prepare for “combat”, to march to the Capitol, to “show strength”, and to never give up. Pastor Stoffregen has never, to my knowledge, specifically denied a single article of the Book of Concord, so if you want to assert that the riot had “no support” from Trump, I eagerly await your endorsement of Pastor Stoffregen as a thoroughly orthodox, confessional Lutheran.

Finally, Senator Sasse has said on the record that White House staffers told him that the President was “delighted” when the protesters stormed the Capitol:

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/8/22220840/sasse-trump-capitol-storming-impeachment?_gl=1*1h2d4ih*
Hmmmm. Do you know anyone who has ever listened to Mr. Evans? I’ve never heard of him until your post.