Author Topic: Civil unrest and Christian witness  (Read 13414 times)

John_Hannah

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #165 on: January 11, 2021, 10:32:45 AM »
Here's an article written at the beginning of 1963 by Martin Franzmann, prior to the first prominent assassination of the 60's later that year.  It's really a treatise on Christian witness and understanding of the times and our place in them.  In an era before the use/overuse of the Two Kingdoms aspects of Luther's theology, this heads down the catechetical line in which a lot of us oldsters were trained,namely that the all unrest - personal, communal, national, global, creational - comes under our First Article lives, which are, for us, tempered by and seen through the Second Article of the Creed.  As this New Year has crashed and burned already, it's appropriate on January 11:
 https://concordiatheology.org/2021/01/the-new-year-and-all-things/

Dave Benke

As always is the case with Franzman, beautiful words with deep substance. Thanks, Dave.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dave Likeness

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #166 on: January 11, 2021, 11:02:00 AM »
Whether we are living in good times or bad times, theologian Martin Franzmann points
us toward Christ.  Regardless of our circumstances , we are to focus on Christ.  This is
the only way we can have peace and joy in our personal lives.  Franzmann was one of the
professors at Concordia Seminary, St. Louis who could communicate The Good News of
Jesus Christ in a clear voice.   His devotional commentaries on Romans and Revelation
remain on my book shelf as steady companions and aids to grow stronger in Christ.

Weedon

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #167 on: January 11, 2021, 11:18:41 AM »
Thank you, Dave. Better words right this moment are hard to imagine. What a gift that man was to “all us beggar kings.”

Norman Teigen

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #168 on: January 11, 2021, 04:24:02 PM »
The participation of Christian professing persons at Wednesday's Trump Insurrection is worth noting.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/01/evangelicals-catholics-jericho-march-capitol/617591/
Norman Teigen

peter_speckhard

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #169 on: January 11, 2021, 04:40:32 PM »
The participation of Christian professing persons at Wednesday's Trump Insurrection is worth noting.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/01/evangelicals-catholics-jericho-march-capitol/617591/
The author of the Atlantic piece seems to feel threatened by talk of Jesus and by “organized Christians.”  Wouldn’t put much stock in the article. The simple fact is that Christians of all stripes who are active, regular Churchgoers voted fairly strongly for Trump. It would be very strange if a big Trump rally didn’t have many of them involved.

David Garner

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #170 on: January 11, 2021, 04:45:47 PM »
See, exchanges like the above make me question the forum's commitment to its new rules.  Mr. Teigen gets to (as ever) use inflammatory words like "Trump Insurrection" (TM) and lump in "Christian professing persons" as if no good Christian could ever attend such an event (pretending, of course, that literally everyone there was a riotous infidel intent on overthrowing the government instead of the truth that people of all stripes, the overwhelming majority of whom were peaceful and law abiding, were there).

But if enough people respond, politely or otherwise, the conversation will devolve and then be deemed out of bounds.

I understand the difficult role our moderators have here, but it would seem to me politically inflammatory speech ought to simply be removed instead of allowed to stand.  I understand the "second hit" rule in football too.  That doesn't make it fair, and here, we aren't talking about having to assess fault in a bang-bang play.  A moderator actually responded to the comment.

I am trying to refrain from making political points on this forum out of respect for the new rules.  It seems to me others are testing the waters.  That, de facto, means one side is allowed more expression than the other. 
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

peter_speckhard

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #171 on: January 11, 2021, 06:10:17 PM »
I removed a series of posts. I left Norman’s there because it linked to a mainstream article that is on topic, misguided as the article is. The dig about “Christian professing persons” while petty, spoke to the idea of Christian witness in the public square.

Charles Austin

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #172 on: January 11, 2021, 06:24:55 PM »
Supposing bishops, presiding Bishops, archbishops, Cardinals, district presidents, patriarchs, any other notable clergy would volunteer to go to Washington and stand with the president and vice president during the inauguration? Or to stand between the inauguration and any demonstrators threatening it?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Dave Benke

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #173 on: January 11, 2021, 06:58:18 PM »
Supposing bishops, presiding Bishops, archbishops, Cardinals, district presidents, patriarchs, any other notable clergy would volunteer to go to Washington and stand with the president and vice president during the inauguration? Or to stand between the inauguration and any demonstrators threatening it?

Isn't there a church/prayer service at a congregation of the president-elect's choosing on the day of the inauguration?  That sticks in my memory.  In terms of clergy attendees of any/all denominations and faith communities, I think that's also always been done in the past.  And President Bush had instituted the Office of Faith and Community or something like that, which Obama continued, as far as I remember.

Dave Benke

Norman Teigen

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #174 on: January 12, 2021, 03:55:34 AM »
See also what Christianity Today has to say about the effect of President Trump's attempts to nullify a valid election result.

https://www.christianitytoday.com

Humoring the President Was Not Harmless
As a little leaven works through a loaf, indulging deceit led to disaster at the Capitol last Wednesday.

Bonnie KristianJanuary 11, 2021
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 03:57:40 AM by Norman Teigen »
Norman Teigen

Randy Bosch

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #175 on: January 12, 2021, 08:51:30 AM »
See also what Christianity Today has to say about the effect of President Trump's attempts to nullify a valid election result.

https://www.christianitytoday.com

Humoring the President Was Not Harmless
As a little leaven works through a loaf, indulging deceit led to disaster at the Capitol last Wednesday.

Bonnie KristianJanuary 11, 2021

This reminded me of a Solzhenitsyn aphorism:

"The Yes-Man is your enemy, but your friend will argue with you."

Far, far too many politicians are surrounded by "Yes-Men", and the results are a disaster whatever the position of the "leader" being humored.

Weedon

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #176 on: January 12, 2021, 08:56:06 AM »
Almost like Proverbs knew a thing or two.. :). Proverbs 27:6 (KJV)

“Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.”
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 08:57:37 AM by Weedon »

Dave Benke

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #177 on: January 12, 2021, 09:18:04 AM »
See also what Christianity Today has to say about the effect of President Trump's attempts to nullify a valid election result.

https://www.christianitytoday.com

Humoring the President Was Not Harmless
As a little leaven works through a loaf, indulging deceit led to disaster at the Capitol last Wednesday.

Bonnie KristianJanuary 11, 2021

Very powerful article in every regard.  I thought maybe you had gone liturgical on us, Norman, and discovered a Norwegian religious festival celebrated every January 11 - Bonnie Kristian Day.     But it turns out she was the author of the CT piece.

Dave Benke

D. Engebretson

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #178 on: January 12, 2021, 09:28:41 AM »
I'm not sure this fits entirely with this thread, but most threads are rather broad anyway....

Some of you may now have heard that several corporations are removing or discontinuing support for any Republican legislator who 'backed overturning the election results.'  Now I am seeing the predicted backlash from others calling for a boycott of those same corporations.  Of course, it underscores how intertwined business and politics are and have been for a very long time.  That's a thread all on its own....

But the boycotting, a form of protest as well, often spills into the Christian community.  Denominations themselves have boycotted certain corporations.  As I looked at a list of those the poster was calling others to boycott I noticed my healthcare provider.  Another makes products I am sure I have purchased at Walmart.  Another handles my primary VISA card. Another concerns the software on the computer I am using to type this.  And so on.  If one used boycotting as a source of protest you would end up, eventually, almost living 'off the grid' as you eliminate most of the businesses upon which you depend for basic services and products.  It's almost a form of Amish removal from regular society. 

Money, of course, is a major motivator at all levels.  Jesus had a good point when he said one cannot serve both God and money. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #179 on: January 12, 2021, 09:38:51 AM »
The participation of Christian professing persons at Wednesday's Trump Insurrection is worth noting.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/01/evangelicals-catholics-jericho-march-capitol/617591/
The author of the Atlantic piece seems to feel threatened by talk of Jesus and by “organized Christians.”  Wouldn’t put much stock in the article. The simple fact is that Christians of all stripes who are active, regular Churchgoers voted fairly strongly for Trump. It would be very strange if a big Trump rally didn’t have many of them involved.

This article provides a nice breakdown of respective religious groups and how they voted. It shows that professing Christians were nearly evenly split in voting for Biden and Trump. There's a very nice bar graph.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/13/white-christians-continue-to-favor-trump-over-biden-but-support-has-slipped/
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