Author Topic: Civil unrest and Christian witness  (Read 13403 times)

D. Engebretson

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2021, 05:29:19 PM »
I do not support those who incited violence and invaded the capital building yesterday. Not at all.  That said, I wonder exactly what the motivation was and the desired end result.  I don't think the group was of one single mind and purpose, even though they are generally labeled as Trump supporters. Part of it was the usual mob-induced rush where you are caught up in something and you are pushed along by the excitement of the moment.  Part of it may have been to stop the electoral vote.  But did they really think they could do more than postpone it?  Were many naïve enough to think that they would not be met with great force from law enforcement?  Were there people involved in this that identified as Christians?  Undoubtedly.  What biblical rationale did they use to justify their actions?  That for me is the most perplexing.  We might all become upset by perceived injustices.  Look at the riots earlier last year.  But what motivates one who identifies as a Christian to not only become destructive and violent (assuming they were), but to oppose the very government they are called to support to pray for?  Or do they see it all as godless and evil with a divine mandate to attack it at all costs?  So many questions....
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Weedon

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2021, 05:53:01 PM »
Perhaps I am wrong, but I am doubting that God entered into the equation in their minds. Almost as if He didn’t observe this flagrant violation of His commandments! But then again, doing what they did and POSTING on social media? I mean, come on. Obviously not a lot of bright light bulbs in that pack.

Dave Benke

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2021, 05:57:54 PM »
Dave, we met via zoom in December to discuss the future of the forum. One thing we agreed upon was that it was too political and insufficiently theological, too partisan and rancorous. Where do you see that spirit we were/are trying to banish introduced into this thread? How does Charles’s post align with the goals for the forum we talked about? I haven’t seen the other posters descend to that level; there has been interesting discussion.

I'm in agreement with what Jim stated, Peter.  Charles lists statements regarding the responsibility level of President Trump, you say "you're simply wrong."  A lot of what's going on in the real world as of yesterday has to do specifically with President Trump and the way he is (and I think will continue to) carry out his baseless grievance.  I don't think it demeans the conversation to discuss the presidency.  In fact, it's necessary.

It does indeed go to prayer - who do we pray for by title and name every Sunday?  "For President Trump and the United States, for President Harrison and the Missouri Synod, for Pastor X and all pastors."  I'm pretty sure those prayers are extensions from the days when Kings and Emperors were in them, but it goes to the issue at hand, which is whether and how the President and Presidency are responsible for and accountable to our "ruling authorities," our democracy.

Taking it further, since I'm already posting, as interviews with those who broke into the Capitol Building come to light, there are many takeaways, but one I took right away was that a lot of the folks could be from the congregation of my Milwaukee childhood.  Irate versions, but the same kinds of people, older middle-agers who truly believe their country is being taken away from them, that the election was fixed, and that some kind of conspiracy has made that happen, so their "savior" is Trump.  And in they break, criminal trespassers on federal property, and most likely elders at their home church.  That to me is heartbreaking, not on the basis of issues themselves, but on the basis of buying the grand conspiracy that ties them to an anchor named Trump.  So one of my prayers is that those folks disentangle along the way, continue with their concerns and anger about the issues, but dump the rest of it along with Trump.  They will need some people to effectively and honestly lead them.  The most impressive of the bunch I heard last night is a Mormon.

Dave Benke

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2021, 06:01:40 PM »
Dave, we met via zoom in December to discuss the future of the forum. One thing we agreed upon was that it was too political and insufficiently theological, too partisan and rancorous. Where do you see that spirit we were/are trying to banish introduced into this thread? How does Charles’s post align with the goals for the forum we talked about? I haven’t seen the other posters descend to that level; there has been interesting discussion.

PETER,

You introduced the subject. Charles merely elaborated on reasons a Christian might object in this case. That he does not like anything about Trump is no sin any more than the many here who seem to feel the way about both Clintons, Obama, Harris, and maybe even Biden.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

J.L. Precup

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2021, 06:13:37 PM »
I do not support those who incited violence and invaded the capital building yesterday. Not at all.  That said, I wonder exactly what the motivation was and the desired end result.  I don't think the group was of one single mind and purpose, even though they are generally labeled as Trump supporters. Part of it was the usual mob-induced rush where you are caught up in something and you are pushed along by the excitement of the moment.  Part of it may have been to stop the electoral vote.  But did they really think they could do more than postpone it?  Were many naïve enough to think that they would not be met with great force from law enforcement?  Were there people involved in this that identified as Christians?  Undoubtedly.  What biblical rationale did they use to justify their actions?  That for me is the most perplexing.  We might all become upset by perceived injustices.  Look at the riots earlier last year.  But what motivates one who identifies as a Christian to not only become destructive and violent (assuming they were), but to oppose the very government they are called to support to pray for?  Or do they see it all as godless and evil with a divine mandate to attack it at all costs?  So many questions....

Here are some thoughts about the motivation of the woman who was killed:

"Prominent figures in the QAnon conspiracy theory movement, including L. Lin Wood, the pro-Trump lawyer behind several failed lawsuits to overturn the election results, have also been behind many of the wildest claims, parroted by the president, that the election was somehow stolen.

Babbitt’s [the woman who was killed] final tweets included a retweet of Wood, in a call that “Mike Pence@vp @Mike_Pence must resign & thereafter be charged with TREASON,” and, “Chief Justice John Roberts must RESIGN.” Wood was suspended from Twitter on Wednesday." --By Brandy Zadrozny and Mosheh Gains, NBC news
Keep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen.

J.L. Precup

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2021, 06:31:54 PM »
I just received an email sermon reprinted from Ed Schroeder in 1990.  The opening paragraph regarding Epiphany seems to speak to the topic at hand:

"The Magi are not the main characters in the drama of Matthew 2. No, the main characters are the two people in the text who have the same title, King of the Jews— Jesus, called the Christ, and Herod, called the Great. In Matthew’s gospel we quickly learn what to ask to find out who is the genuine one: who dies and who lies? The genuine King of the Jews never lies and himself dies for God’s people. The phony one regularly lies and makes others do the dying for him. That’s true in leadership and authority positions throughout the world. Who dies and who lies—that is the question."

« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 01:16:36 AM by J.L. Precup »
Keep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen.

James S. Rustad

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2021, 06:43:18 PM »
I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!
2:13 pm January 6

RPG

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2021, 07:32:41 PM »
The Rev. Ryan P. Gage
Eureka, SD

Richard Johnson

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2021, 07:43:18 PM »
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2021, 08:19:31 PM »
Does moderator Peter Speckhard have authority to limit or remove Charles Austin's posts?

I regard Pr. Speckhard's posts as an expression of his political views.. In not a few instances they do not reflect mine.  The same is true for some of his theological posts. 

In many instances I agree with Charles.  At other times I have a slightly different take.  For the most part I think he represents the give and take which ALPB Founders intended for conversation among fellow Lutherans.

Marie Meyer

Keith Falk

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2021, 08:48:17 PM »
Does moderator Peter Speckhard have authority to limit or remove Charles Austin's posts?

I regard Pr. Speckhard's posts as an expression of his political views.. In not a few instances they do not reflect mine.  The same is true for some of his theological posts. 

In many instances I agree with Charles.  At other times I have a slightly different take.  For the most part I think he represents the give and take which ALPB Founders intended for conversation among fellow Lutherans.

Marie Meyer


If Peter doesn't have the authority to limit or remove Charles Austin's posts (or any poster's posts!) then there is absolutely no point in having a moderator. 

Rev. Keith Falk, STS

RogerMartim

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2021, 09:05:36 PM »
So, if Pastor Austin expresses a viewpoint and another poster expresses an opposite viewpoint, Pastor Austin is the one that gets threatened to be banned? That doesn't make much sense to me.

RPG

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2021, 09:50:49 PM »
Does moderator Peter Speckhard have authority to limit or remove Charles Austin's posts?

I regard Pr. Speckhard's posts as an expression of his political views.. In not a few instances they do not reflect mine.  The same is true for some of his theological posts. 

In many instances I agree with Charles.  At other times I have a slightly different take.  For the most part I think he represents the give and take which ALPB Founders intended for conversation among fellow Lutherans.

Marie Meyer


If Peter doesn't have the authority to limit or remove Charles Austin's posts (or any poster's posts!) then there is absolutely no point in having a moderator.


Exactly. Peter and Richard both do a great job at a thankless task.


Seriously, folks, let’s not go down this road. This place, such as it has been lately, is one of the few worthwhile places on the interwebs. Let them call balls and strikes as they see fit. PM them if you disagree with their calls if you must. But let’s not make this place one more tribal enclave. Please. This rural, rather isolated pastor begs you.


RPG+
The Rev. Ryan P. Gage
Eureka, SD

Dave Likeness

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2021, 09:59:12 PM »
The ALPH Forum is like a baseball game.  Everybody gets an at bat and a swing at
the ball.  Some posts are a hit and others are even a home run.  Then some posts
strike out.   The Moderators are the Umpires.  You should never blame your poor
at bat on the umpires.  Winning or losing is not the result of the umpires decision.
If an umpire decides that your post struck out, then accept his decision.

George Rahn

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Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2021, 10:09:34 PM »
The ALPH Forum is like a baseball game.  Everybody gets an at bat and a swing at
the ball.  Some posts are a hit and others are even a home run.  Then some posts
strike out.   The Moderators are the Umpires.  You should never blame your poor
at bat on the umpires.  Winning or losing is not the result of the umpires decision.
If an umpire decides that your post struck out, then accept his decision.

Amen.  Sounds like we have reached the end. Now the thread can be closed.  God's peace, y'all