Author Topic: LCMS Inc 2020 Report  (Read 37054 times)

Weedon

  • Guest
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #60 on: December 23, 2020, 06:01:55 PM »
Commencement,

I must confess I have not the first clue what you are talking about here, especially not your reference to Prs. Wille and Preus!

Those I know who have crossed either Tiber or Bosphorus (I know those who have done either, as well as, what the Thames, into Anglicanism) did so not because of “mobbing” (still not convinced that is actually a prevalent thing among us), but because they became convinced that those alternatives were somehow more faithful to the original Lutheran vision (as given in the Confessions) but which the congregations they served and the pastors they served among no longer seemed to be even interested in upholding, let alone furthering.

From there it became a fateful step to distancing themselves from where they thought the Lutheran Symbols had come up short (thus identifying whatever they thought caused the failure of the ideal among us). Pr. Hein accurately diagnosed this years ago as comparing a Lutheran REALITY to a Roman, Eastern, Anglican IDEAL and finding the Lutherans came up short. Well, duh. But reality to reality yields a different assessment, as well as ideal to ideal.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 07:00:31 PM by Weedon »

Commencement2020

  • ALPB Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #61 on: December 23, 2020, 06:20:48 PM »
I know these things very well from offline, personal relationships and experience. Rev. Pres. John C. Willie is former WELS having graduated from WLS in 1979 and colloquized in 1984. Preus only re-joined the LCMS after being made to leave ELS. What I meant by mentioning their names is that these men were welcomed in. And they are not the only ones; I'd rather not name lower profile names on the public internet. One wrote a highly detailed account of his mobbing and published it in a periodical. After reading it, I called him up and he was glad to talk with me. He is grateful to be in the LCMS now and to put the mobbing in his previous denomination behind him.

Some who cross the rivers may do it entirely of their own will. Others may be recruited after mobbing. (Mobbing also occurs in the LCMS ministerial education system. Maybe not all will call it that because there is no job loss. Yet the drama, power dynamics, banal behaviors, and outcomes are similar.)

If you leave the LCMS and join another denomination due to mobbing, it is wise not to be vocal about it. There is no good in it. Much better to focus on the idealistic aspects about what you've discovered joining your new denomination.

(My earlier post at https://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7712.msg495228#msg495228 gives context about how mobbing reduces intra-denominational strife by reducing the clergy oversupply issue. Any organization or nation which oversupplies candidates to the elite class risks strengthening counter-elite movements.)

As for my suggestion to close both seminaries while remaining open to colloquies, this is especially based off of a comment I have heard (in person, not online) repeated within WELS. This is a serious proposal and not rooted in anger or sarcasm and it runs along the lines of "We have so many uncalled people, we could just close down X and just issue calls from the remaining names for a while." The reservoir of uncalled theologically trained people in the other former Synodical Conference bodies is a proverbial goldmine of human resources. The LCMS should pirate it. And if you aren't interested, well, okay, but missing out on the next Willie or Preus is the opportunity cost of keeping the LCMS seminaries running.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 01:19:01 AM by Commencement2020 »

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12932
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #62 on: December 23, 2020, 07:09:58 PM »
It seems to me the poor would likely be the most inclined to be part of more rigorous church. In general, they seem ay least as willing if not even more willing to actually live by the teachings of the church than are the middle an upper classes.

I agree. I spent some of my youth working in impoverished inner-city neighborhoods. The churches with which I was familiar fought tenaciously against the tide of materialism, sexual exploitation, racial enmity, lack of economic opportunity, substance abuse, government neglect, crime, lack of access to healthcare, poor housing options, unemployment, and family dissolution. They knew exactly where the world around them departed from the Christian faith.

Absolutely.  I'm in that neighborhood for four decades.  And the pastor, although a teacher, is mostly a learner, understanding faith and the struggle with new inner eyes.  The lines between working class and working poor and just flat out poor are not the finely drawn; they blend together and when it comes to church bring folks who understand utter dependence on God and utter interdependence in the Body as givens.

Dave Benke

Commencement2020

  • ALPB Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 08:36:53 PM by Commencement2020 »

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43763
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #64 on: December 24, 2020, 01:16:16 AM »
Where does "Church of the poor" come from?

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Iglesia+de+los+pobres&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=32&smoothing=0&case_insensitive=true

and

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Church+of+the+poor&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=0&case_insensitive=true

A good explanation in Spanish:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/La_Iglesia_de_los_pobres_en_el_Concilio/0gOIDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Iglesia+de+los+pobres%22&pg=PT8&printsec=frontcover

A good explanation in English:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Emergence_of_Liberation_Theology/I_XnJF4aYOgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Church+of+the+poor%22&pg=PA44&printsec=frontcover

and in case you are wondering why the phrase was unused by 19th century Spanish writers, it is because they were not Anglican. (It was an Anglican and Scottish slogan back then, see https://books.google.com/books?id=umYQAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=%22A+prominent+characteristic+of+the+English+Church+is+that+it+is+emphatically+the+Church+of+the+poor%22&source=bl&ots=FayCY1cCqx&sig=ACfU3U1Qf9anoGQwpP9CSpGpYq2uISW2HA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi94or1vOXtAhXXHM0KHZEtCScQ6AEwAHoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=%22A%20prominent%20characteristic%20of%20the%20English%20Church%20is%20that%20it%20is%20emphatically%20the%20Church%20of%20the%20poor%22&f=false .)


Perhaps back to biblical times.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites#:~:text=Ebionites%20(Greek%3A%20%E1%BC%98%CE%B2%CE%B9%CF%89%CE%BD%CE%B1%E1%BF%96%CE%BF%CE%B9%2C%20Ebionaioi,centuries%20of%20the%20Common%20Era.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 14249
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2020, 06:03:13 AM »
I have known personally seven ordained men who left the LCA or ELCA for another non-Lutheran part of the church, and I have personally known a few who have left the Church completely. None left because of any assaults by a “mob” that drove them out.
But maybe you could consider the hostility to gays back in the 60s or 70s “mobbing.”
Or maybe those who fled the ELCA after 2009 were “mobbed”.
No one I knew of or knew about would have been a likely recruit for the LC-MS.
Retired ELCA Pastor. You can say liberal Christians are wrong. You can say that you disagree with our interpretation of faith. But when you say we are driven by “culture” or “trendiness,” you prove that you do not listen to us. Luther fared better with Rome.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 18368
    • View Profile
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2020, 09:00:15 AM »
I don't think mobbing has much to do with clergy leaving one denomination for another. I would say much of the time it is genuine theological conviction, and among those who aren't particularly inclined to take a strong doctrinal stand it is more likely convenience for the sake of a job or congregation they love.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12932
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2020, 09:19:53 AM »
I'm thinking through how to do the Statistical Report coming toward all congregations in 2021 for the past year, which will be more or less mirrored in the year to come.  This two year period will and should form the basis for doctoral theses for decades to come in church work based on statistical analysis. 

So my own realization is that 2020 was a year of great recapitulation.  As soon as the virus hit, and since we had live-streaming services, people from all over the country and other countries who had been with us as parishioners or neighbors made the long trek back to Brooklyn - which took one punch of a button - to be connected virtually.  In addition, our outreach to people we'd never seen before multiplied, so we recapitulated our heart/soul desire to spread the Good News.  The advice of the national information-gatherers is not to list those live-stream participants, not to count them.  I'm not taking that advice.  Those were and are real people, up to and including their Paypal virtual but definitely countable remissions to our bank.

What remains is hope - new day, new ways, same message of comfort and joy.  Churchly institutions and their buildings and workers at all levels right to the upper boardrooms are going to be pressed hard, but hope will prevail, differently and maybe more simply viewed amidst the wreckage because the message will not be mixed.  Tidings of comfort and joy!

Dave Benke




peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 18368
    • View Profile
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2020, 09:31:44 AM »
Pr. Clint Schneckloth, who moderates the ELCA clergy facebook page and other online places, wrote his thesis (D.Min or Ph.D, not sure which) at Fuller Theological Seminary more than a decade ago about the topic you mention, Dave. It is (as I recall) all about church community in an online world. He's a militantly progressive guy, but I was in an in-person clergy group with him years ago and we got along fine back then. But he vies to be among the wokest of the woke on facebook, but I'm not on social media anymore so I haven't been in contact with him in years. I've never read his thesis, but it might be worth looking up if Dave or anyone else is interested in the topic.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12932
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #69 on: December 24, 2020, 09:37:37 AM »
Here's a little feedback from "America's Pastor," Rick Warren, who - with a mega-sized virtual ministry popping - pushes from his SoCal locale against the concept that churches are being discriminated against and should have mass gatherings:  https://www.aol.com/news/popular-evangelical-pastor-coronavirus-rules-024453901.html.

Dave Benke

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12932
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #70 on: December 24, 2020, 09:41:38 AM »
Pr. Clint Schneckloth, who moderates the ELCA clergy facebook page and other online places, wrote his thesis (D.Min or Ph.D, not sure which) at Fuller Theological Seminary more than a decade ago about the topic you mention, Dave. It is (as I recall) all about church community in an online world. He's a militantly progressive guy, but I was in an in-person clergy group with him years ago and we got along fine back then. But he vies to be among the wokest of the woke on facebook, but I'm not on social media anymore so I haven't been in contact with him in years. I've never read his thesis, but it might be worth looking up if Dave or anyone else is interested in the topic.

I'll have to check that out.  I'm totally an in-person, lots of personal touch, twenty minute sharing of the peace, Eucharist in person guy - the effects of virtuality on church as community, however, seem more comprehensive than my past awareness allowed, and I have seen doors opened, up to and including a recent Facetime cross country house blessing.  Who'd a thunk it?

Dave Benke

Randy Bosch

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 543
    • View Profile
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #71 on: December 24, 2020, 09:54:21 AM »
Pr. Clint Schneckloth, who moderates the ELCA clergy facebook page and other online places, wrote his thesis (D.Min or Ph.D, not sure which) at Fuller Theological Seminary more than a decade ago about the topic you mention, Dave. It is (as I recall) all about church community in an online world. He's a militantly progressive guy, but I was in an in-person clergy group with him years ago and we got along fine back then. But he vies to be among the wokest of the woke on facebook, but I'm not on social media anymore so I haven't been in contact with him in years. I've never read his thesis, but it might be worth looking up if Dave or anyone else is interested in the topic.

I'll have to check that out.  I'm totally an in-person, lots of personal touch, twenty minute sharing of the peace, Eucharist in person guy - the effects of virtuality on church as community, however, seem more comprehensive than my past awareness allowed, and I have seen doors opened, up to and including a recent Facetime cross country house blessing.  Who'd a thunk it?

Dave Benke

The wonders of human omnipresence!

Dave Likeness

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5205
    • View Profile
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #72 on: December 24, 2020, 09:58:55 AM »
Pastor Clint Schnecloth is a native Iowan who grew up in metro Davenport, Iowa.
He graduated from Luther College, Luther Seminary, and has a Doctor of Ministry
from Fuller Seminary.  He has taken on a number of causes which seek to lift up
those who need the most help in our society. Let me hear an Amen for Iowa
Lutheranism.

John_Hannah

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5514
    • View Profile
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #73 on: December 24, 2020, 10:03:56 AM »
Pastor Clint Schnecloth is a native Iowan who grew up in metro Davenport, Iowa.
He graduated from Luther College, Luther Seminary, and has a Doctor of Ministry
from Fuller Seminary.  He has taken on a number of causes which seek to lift up
those who need the most help in our society. Let me hear an Amen for Iowa
Lutheranism.

AMEN! JOHN (born & raised in Hampton)
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 14249
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2020, 10:12:09 AM »
Amen again. Born and reared in Sioux City. First parish in Dubuque.
Retired ELCA Pastor. You can say liberal Christians are wrong. You can say that you disagree with our interpretation of faith. But when you say we are driven by “culture” or “trendiness,” you prove that you do not listen to us. Luther fared better with Rome.