Author Topic: Not about the election...  (Read 29565 times)

pastorg1@aol.com

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #315 on: December 16, 2020, 11:44:10 AM »
I come from a Navy family. My Dad was flag rank, so his two stars flew above any ship, Naval Station or hotel he visited.

Iím very aware of titles and ranks and so feel comfortable calling people by their earned rank. I address most strangers as sir or madame. Can seem stuffy on my part, but I consider the rank part of their character.

It can be tricky of course. I would address my wifeís boss (one of the richest men in the area) as sir, but he much preferred to be called by his proper name and so I must have seemed churlish.

And, the opposite can be telling and rather sweet: After leading my fatherís funeral at the Naval Station, I was in full pastoral regalia being greeted by the high-ranking friends of my dadís who knew me as I child.

They shook my hand and said, ďGood job, Petey.Ē

If I were His Holiness the Pope, they would have said, ďGood job, Petey.Ē

I wouldíve replied as I did, ďThank you, Captain.Ē

Peter (Itís The Reverend Petey to you, Bub.) Garrison
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 04:32:55 PM by pastorg1@aol.com »
Pete Garrison, STS

Dave Benke

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #316 on: December 16, 2020, 12:23:34 PM »
I think it would be better if he stayed away Dave, just did the John Adams thing and get the heck out of Dodge (or D.C.).  I voted for him and though I don't like him, I would have preferred him to win--but this whole "I wuz robbed" shtick is wearing thin.  I think the sooner that Republicans and the handful of conservative Democrats (maybe it's just Manchin from WV) leave Trump to stew in his narcissism and focus on stopping the radical left, the better.

Agreed, Ken.  In a recent election (pre-COVID) we almost got a Queens DA who favored decriminalizing pretty much everything.  She lost by 60 votes to somebody I know who had been the Queens Borough President.  The only thing I can say is that the loser did not claim the election was rigged, even though the margin was razor thin.  The organizing efforts of the hard progressive left are very strong in this part of the world, which is why we don't have the 20,000 jobs the Amazon corporate HQ move would have brought to Queens.

Dave Benke

It's only a matter of time, Dave.  The new Los Angeles District Attorney, previously the elected District Attorney of San Francisco City & County, has already announced his priorities for prosecution, ramping up even from those that helped successfully turn San Francisco into the garden spot it is today.  He will no longer prosecute the crimes of trespassing on residential property, driving with no license or a suspended license, soliciting prosecution, non-sale drug offenses, shoplifting (San Francisco said you can shoplift up to $800 on any single store adventure - they need the stuff, after all), parking and non-injurious traffic offenses, public intoxication (I think), and a bunch of other misdemeanors.  Don't bother calling the police for these things, either, his policy advises, they shouldn't respond.  Think of all of the police time saved, justifying the dramatic reduction in budget for the uniformed.  He was a very popular, and successful candidate for the job.

Good grief.  This can't work.  I spend a reasonably large amount of time with NYPD, and just gave a prayer at the memorial for an officer - Pete Figoski - killed in action about three blocks from our church 8 years ago.  Morale is held, because leadership is extremely dedicated. But morale is hard to hold, because the goal posts for the profession that include the word "enforcement" have been moved almost off the field of play.

In our case in Queens, my wife and I were not feeling well on the night of the election, so were considering not voting.  But - I said - this could be very close.  We could be casting the deciding ballot.  So we got in and voted.  And since the candidate won by 60,  a) we have felt ours were the deciding ballots and b) learned that your vote DOES count.

Dave Benke


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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #317 on: December 16, 2020, 12:42:45 PM »
I think it would be better if he stayed away Dave, just did the John Adams thing and get the heck out of Dodge (or D.C.).  I voted for him and though I don't like him, I would have preferred him to win--but this whole "I wuz robbed" shtick is wearing thin.  I think the sooner that Republicans and the handful of conservative Democrats (maybe it's just Manchin from WV) leave Trump to stew in his narcissism and focus on stopping the radical left, the better.

Agreed, Ken.  In a recent election (pre-COVID) we almost got a Queens DA who favored decriminalizing pretty much everything.  She lost by 60 votes to somebody I know who had been the Queens Borough President.  The only thing I can say is that the loser did not claim the election was rigged, even though the margin was razor thin.  The organizing efforts of the hard progressive left are very strong in this part of the world, which is why we don't have the 20,000 jobs the Amazon corporate HQ move would have brought to Queens.

Dave Benke

It's only a matter of time, Dave.  The new Los Angeles District Attorney, previously the elected District Attorney of San Francisco City & County, has already announced his priorities for prosecution, ramping up even from those that helped successfully turn San Francisco into the garden spot it is today.  He will no longer prosecute the crimes of trespassing on residential property, driving with no license or a suspended license, soliciting prosecution, non-sale drug offenses, shoplifting (San Francisco said you can shoplift up to $800 on any single store adventure - they need the stuff, after all), parking and non-injurious traffic offenses, public intoxication (I think), and a bunch of other misdemeanors.  Don't bother calling the police for these things, either, his policy advises, they shouldn't respond.  Think of all of the police time saved, justifying the dramatic reduction in budget for the uniformed.  He was a very popular, and successful candidate for the job.

Good grief.  This can't work.  I spend a reasonably large amount of time with NYPD, and just gave a prayer at the memorial for an officer - Pete Figoski - killed in action about three blocks from our church 8 years ago.  Morale is held, because leadership is extremely dedicated. But morale is hard to hold, because the goal posts for the profession that include the word "enforcement" have been moved almost off the field of play.

In our case in Queens, my wife and I were not feeling well on the night of the election, so were considering not voting.  But - I said - this could be very close.  We could be casting the deciding ballot.  So we got in and voted.  And since the candidate won by 60,  a) we have felt ours were the deciding ballots and b) learned that your vote DOES count.

Dave Benke
It won't work for the people living there, but they don't matter; what matters is that this policy will probably work exactly as the politicians in place hope it will ó to drive further divisions between people, to make them afraid, to further polarize voters, and to give them reason to snatch even more power for themselves. Predictable consequences are (usually) chosen consequences.

Pastor Ken Kimball

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #318 on: December 16, 2020, 01:07:36 PM »
Most of the cases were settled by judges saying the plaintiff lacked standing, there was no time, the principal of caches meant that the lawsuit needed to be filed earlier, there was no remedy, the evidence presented would not change the result, etc. In most cases there needs to be authority to move it from allegation to proof, as with people voting in multiple states. So the legal situation on the whole is hard to navigate, which is as it should be. It just doesnít solve the underlying lack of confidence in the results.
A Trump-appointed judge in Wisconsin last week gave Trump's legal team the opportunity to present their evidence for fraudulent voting.  Trump's team declined to do so.  Like you, I still have a parish to look after and like you I don't have time to do meticulous research, but it seems to me that Trump's legal tactics have been largely a cobbled together mess of allegations and special pleadings that pretty much amount to "Trump could only have lost by a rigging of the system, therefore the system must have been rigged."  I suggest, as David Garner has previously, go check out Andrew McCarthy on National Review.  McCarthy (like me) voted for Trump and in fact, IMO, made good arguments for voting for Trump.  No Never-Trumper he.  His reporting and analysis of what's happened in the courts convinced me that Trump's team really has no compelling evidence or testimony to make a truthful case that election fraud (intentional or otherwise) cost Trump the election.  Not that there wasn't any fraud or irregularities, but not enough to account for or to reject Biden's narrow victories in those states.  Computer statistical analyses all depend on the initial parameters and assumptions--just like the climate change models I distrust.  Even now the Trump team has not yet presented evidence other than conjecture and anecdote.  And they have decidedly shied away from doing so in courts where they did have the opportunity to do so--perhaps because if they knowingly presented false or manufactured evidence themselves they (Trump's lawyers) could be sanctioned for doing so. 
I think the battle for Trump's election is over.  It's time to focus on developing an effective resistance to the radical left's agenda and to Biden's support for that agenda.  Trump's splintering of the Republican side by his scurrilous attacks on elected Republican leaders like the governors of GA and AZ is not helping.   

Dave Benke

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #319 on: December 16, 2020, 01:22:00 PM »
I think it would be better if he stayed away Dave, just did the John Adams thing and get the heck out of Dodge (or D.C.).  I voted for him and though I don't like him, I would have preferred him to win--but this whole "I wuz robbed" shtick is wearing thin.  I think the sooner that Republicans and the handful of conservative Democrats (maybe it's just Manchin from WV) leave Trump to stew in his narcissism and focus on stopping the radical left, the better.

Agreed, Ken.  In a recent election (pre-COVID) we almost got a Queens DA who favored decriminalizing pretty much everything.  She lost by 60 votes to somebody I know who had been the Queens Borough President.  The only thing I can say is that the loser did not claim the election was rigged, even though the margin was razor thin.  The organizing efforts of the hard progressive left are very strong in this part of the world, which is why we don't have the 20,000 jobs the Amazon corporate HQ move would have brought to Queens.

Dave Benke

It's only a matter of time, Dave.  The new Los Angeles District Attorney, previously the elected District Attorney of San Francisco City & County, has already announced his priorities for prosecution, ramping up even from those that helped successfully turn San Francisco into the garden spot it is today.  He will no longer prosecute the crimes of trespassing on residential property, driving with no license or a suspended license, soliciting prosecution, non-sale drug offenses, shoplifting (San Francisco said you can shoplift up to $800 on any single store adventure - they need the stuff, after all), parking and non-injurious traffic offenses, public intoxication (I think), and a bunch of other misdemeanors.  Don't bother calling the police for these things, either, his policy advises, they shouldn't respond.  Think of all of the police time saved, justifying the dramatic reduction in budget for the uniformed.  He was a very popular, and successful candidate for the job.

Good grief.  This can't work.  I spend a reasonably large amount of time with NYPD, and just gave a prayer at the memorial for an officer - Pete Figoski - killed in action about three blocks from our church 8 years ago.  Morale is held, because leadership is extremely dedicated. But morale is hard to hold, because the goal posts for the profession that include the word "enforcement" have been moved almost off the field of play.

In our case in Queens, my wife and I were not feeling well on the night of the election, so were considering not voting.  But - I said - this could be very close.  We could be casting the deciding ballot.  So we got in and voted.  And since the candidate won by 60,  a) we have felt ours were the deciding ballots and b) learned that your vote DOES count.

Dave Benke
It won't work for the people living there, but they don't matter; what matters is that this policy will probably work exactly as the politicians in place hope it will ó to drive further divisions between people, to make them afraid, to further polarize voters, and to give them reason to snatch even more power for themselves. Predictable consequences are (usually) chosen consequences.

Living in a version of this world as I do, and as many in large cities do, there are political realities which encircle:
a) it is a two party system in a different way.  The Republican party, especially the Trump wing, doesn't have the votes.  And hasn't for years.  Rudy and Mike, our last two Republican mayors (although Mike switched later on) ran and won from a minoritarian position by appealing to wealth/economics and law/order in their (our) context.  But basically the Republican party wins maybe a couple of council seats, plus major parts of Staten Island (the south shore is much like the Howard Beach neighborhood of Queens); and that's it.  They're way outnumbered and tend then to be like the NY Post, opposing pretty much everything.  The Daily News is more like the regular democrats.
b) so there are two aspects of the Democratic Party which are the two actual parties.  One is people from their neighborhoods who come through a system of lower level politics and then take care of constituents.  Those would be kind of regular democrats.  The other is the progressive wing which kind of enters a neighborhood, organizes very hard in the gentrifying areas, and promotes the kind of thing you see in San Francisco as the way to the future.  They tend to be highly educated, and highly ideological, whereas the normal democrats although educated are less ideological. 

So our "hope for the cities" such as it is, is for regular democrats who tend toward some version of the middle to win the day by getting votes from people who would normally be centrist Republicans but have no one to vote for, thereby keeping the hard-line leftists out of the mix.  Dicey game all the way. 

Dave Benke

Randy Bosch

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #320 on: December 16, 2020, 01:22:46 PM »
Interesting times will continue.  Representative Ocasio-Cortez announced today that Speaker Pelosi needs to go, but that she (Ocasio-Cortez) doesn't want to be Speaker yet.  There is no joy in Mudville even if you don't strike out.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #321 on: December 16, 2020, 01:59:29 PM »
Everyone who supports Jill Biden's demand to be addressed as "Doctor" based on her education degree is hereby requested to address me as Dr. Peter Speckhard in this forum. Everyone else is invited to continue calling me Peter.

btw, my dad has a doctorate in education. He never went by Dr. Speckhard. It is confusing to strangers, who think immediately of medical doctors, and pompous among colleagues and acquaintances.

I don't personally think a doctor of ministry qualifies one to be known as "doctor"; would it be OK if I just called you Master Peter?  8) 

Perhaps you don't recall the kerfuffle at Yale and Harvard where "Master of the College" was deemed to trigger recollections of historical slavery and persecution, and even the "Master of XYZ" degree and "Masters Program" were deemed to be racist.  Maybe another term?  "Hey, You"?

Maybe I'll just stick with "Pete."
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #322 on: December 16, 2020, 02:00:47 PM »

The LCMS is a totally different universe. Seems like anybody other than a lowly pastor is Dr -----.

Then there was my parishioner, who called me "Dr. Johnson" long before I even contemplated going to graduate school. I think it's because he had a pastor once upon a time who was "Dr."
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

peter_speckhard

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #323 on: December 16, 2020, 02:09:56 PM »
ďWhich is what people usually mean by election reform. How are you gonna keep it from us being able to be in a position where you can manipulate the machines, manipulate the records? I think we should pass a federal law mandating that the same machines with paper trails be mandatory for every federal election. We canít mandate state elections. So in a nutshell I think we should be mandating that we have a paper ballot with a standardized machine, standardized requirement.Ē Senator Joe Biden, 2007

https://pjmedia.com/election/matt-margolis/2020/12/16/flashback-biden-was-concerned-about-manipulated-voting-machines-called-for-paper-ballots-n1215252

I would agree that the lawsuits being cobbled together haven't offered proof. It would be really hard to do that in this timeframe without it being some kind of sting operation that was set up to catch people red handed. And I agree that it looks like Biden will be sworn in, and when that happens, he will be president, same as Trump is now. But I think it is revisionist to say that the election was normal except that Trump and Republicans didn't like the result. Extreme skepticism is fully justified by the facts. Yes, it was expected for the mail-in ballots to go for Biden and to come in late. But mid-evening on election night the Chinese currency was in a free-fall as global investors anticipated a Trump win, Nate Silver was giving Trump very high odds, and the talking heads were discussing whether Biden still had a path to victory. Those aren't the action of people who knew and expected all along that the Dem vote was just late to report. What happened is that all the swing states stopped the count at roughly the same time for no discernable reason. Then in the morning it turned out Biden won. And he won when the states that stopped counting ended up being the same states that reported major statistical anomalies. That might have happened, but it was not expected, especially given that Trump had already won Texas and Florida pretty comfortably and Ohio by 8 points.

So, yes, in due time the legal avenues will likely be exhausted and the country will go on. But for many perfectly sane people the result will always be in the O.J. was innocent, Epstein committed suicide category of official realities. Unless, that is, someone gives a plausible explanation.   

Pastor Ken Kimball

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #324 on: December 16, 2020, 04:17:55 PM »
True.  This was not a normal election.  And with the mail in ballots there was lots of room for fraud, let alone "irregularities."  I get it Peter that there are anomalies (like what you listed above) that raise questions and perhaps require answers.  But it cuts the other way as well, that efforts to disqualify Biden votes or even disqualify the elections in certain states, also raise questions that need answers (with accompanying evidence).  But I'll go with AG Barr and his conclusion--irregularities yes, but not sufficient to account for or to justify overturning the elections in those states.  Trump's argument requires a massive conspiracy at the highest levels, including elected Republicans who have supported Trump.  And if such a conspiracy existed, taking the risks they did, why not also ensure Biden to have overwhelming control of the Senate and at the least, strengthen the Democrat control of the House?  And state legislatures?   I don't like it that Biden won.  I wish Trump had--and it's not hard to imagine that if Trump had had the discipline to be a little less Trump in how he publicly handled the pandemic, didn't waste time and attention on tweeting petty arguments against Scarborough et al, and had prepared and handled himself at the first debate the way he did at the second, that he would have eked out a win in those states, instead of losing suburban moderates a la the 2018 midterms.  Is it possible such a conspiracy happened--I suppose so--but absent genuine evidence and testimony, I do not support disqualifying elections and votes simply on the basis that it didn't turn out like I wanted.  And I'm not the only one who knew the likelihood that Trump would have early leads before the mail in ballots were counted.  My main point is that the important thing right now is not a futile effort to disqualify the balloting of those swing states nor to defend Biden's legitimacy or to assuage poor Trump's bruised ego.  The main point is to focus on stopping the radical left agenda and resisting Biden at every point that he supports that agenda.     

peter_speckhard

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #325 on: December 16, 2020, 04:32:26 PM »
I fully agree that the election canít be overturned on what has been demonstrated so far. My point is simply that Occamís Razor is on the side of fraud being the simplest and best explanation. There just isnít any good way of proving it. Absent any proof someone killed Epstein, we have to go with the official suicide explanation. We donít have to believe it, but absent any proof to the contrary, it is what we have to go by.

And I agree about stopping the agenda going forward. I just donít have any particular problem with exhausting every legal channel. It isnít hurting anything except that laughable idea that we can have unity now that Trump is gone.

James S. Rustad

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #326 on: December 16, 2020, 04:53:22 PM »
Everyone who supports Jill Biden's demand to be addressed as "Doctor" based on her education degree is hereby requested to address me as Dr. Peter Speckhard in this forum. Everyone else is invited to continue calling me Peter.


Certainly wouldn't doubt you, Master Peter, but can you point me to where she "demanded" to be addressed as doctor? All I've read is back and forth op ed columns about whether or not she should be so addressed.
I've never met her, so I can only go by what people say. The words I've come across include "insists" or "requests" or "demands" or something similar. THe The relevant point is that she goes out of her way to initiate being referred to as Dr. Jill Biden. I knew of a grade school principal with a D.Ed. who went by "Dr." in a university town and got a tremendous amount of eye-rolling at his pretentiousness.

I think a good exercise with anything is to ask how a media (late night comedy included) would treat a Republican who did the same thing. Think about Democrats the way Stephen Colbert thinks about Republicans.

Another good exercise is how the media would treat a male who did the same thing:
Is there a *real* doctor in the house?

Pastor Ken Kimball

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #327 on: December 16, 2020, 05:12:35 PM »
I fully agree that the election canít be overturned on what has been demonstrated so far. My point is simply that Occamís Razor is on the side of fraud being the simplest and best explanation. There just isnít any good way of proving it. Absent any proof someone killed Epstein, we have to go with the official suicide explanation. We donít have to believe it, but absent any proof to the contrary, it is what we have to go by.

And I agree about stopping the agenda going forward. I just donít have any particular problem with exhausting every legal channel. It isnít hurting anything except that laughable idea that we can have unity now that Trump is gone.
Agree.   

Norman Teigen

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #328 on: December 16, 2020, 05:37:39 PM »
Here is a challenging read on "Political.  sectarianism in America."    'A poisonous cocktail of othering, aversion, and moralization poses a threat to democracy.'  It's from Science Magazine.  I haven't read all of yet but intend to do so.


https://pcl.stanford.edu/research/2020/finkel-science-political.pdf
Norman Teigen

Charles Austin

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Re: Not about the election...
« Reply #329 on: December 17, 2020, 06:10:52 AM »
A hopeful sign?
If I read the online facsimiles of the front page of The New York Times correctly, on Tuesday and Wednesday of this week there were no Page One stories about Donald J. Trump.
Nor were there any stories about him on the ďTop StoriesĒ segment of the Washington Post web page.
I also find him missing from the front pages of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune.
He is also not in the top stories part of the Chicago Sun-Times web page, although I donít have full access to that paper.
He is also not in the lead stories of Washington Times, a conservative paper, for the past two days, but their placement of top stories is hard to follow on the website.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Ditto.
Is it over?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.