Author Topic: Now that the 2020 Election is over....  (Read 55878 times)

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #525 on: November 14, 2020, 10:32:27 PM »
I don’t know your profession, Mr. Garner, but supposing I said of it “this is why half the country doesn’t trust [your profession]. Precisely because they [do the opposite of what your profession is supposed to do] and therefore are tools of the devil.”
Sounds stupid, right? Doesn’t help dialog or understanding, right?
Working in the secular media, I often had to knock down people’s warped views of faith, Christianity and the Church.
I really tire of you who declare all reporters liars.

I didn’t say all reporters.

But you love to cite to the NY Times, so that shoe might fit better than some others.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

James S. Rustad

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #526 on: November 14, 2020, 11:28:10 PM »
I think it is so funny that some of you on this board insist that President-Elect Biden is a presumptive President-Elect only. Five seconds after Trump stepped over the magical 270 line in 2016 he was President-Elect and no one brought up this, "Oh, but he isn't until..."

Didn't the Department of Homeland Security state the other day that 2020 Election was the most secure and safe one ever? Yet, again some of you insist that there had to have been fraud, rampant or otherwise. Thousands marched today in DC insisting that the election was stolen. The Department of Homeland Security is under Trump's purview. How many attorneys have now walked away from being connected to this paranoia because there was no basis?

Mostly because back in 2016 there wasn't anyone calling us names if we did not accept the title of "President Elect".  Up until that started I would have let it pass as being just one more media inaccuracy.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 11:29:42 PM by James S. Rustad »

Norman Teigen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #527 on: November 15, 2020, 04:01:36 AM »
A couple that we have known for years have been spreading info on FB about a software program (Dominion) being a part of  'Steal the Vote.'   Rather surprised to learn that these good people have been influenced in this matter.  Here is the truth behind the matter.  The count by the way is now Biden 306, Trump 232.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/technology/no-dominion-voting-machines-did-not-delete-trump-votes.html
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 04:12:37 AM by Norman Teigen »
Norman Teigen

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #528 on: November 15, 2020, 05:20:40 AM »
“Stop the Steal” has been around since before 2016 and is a far far right disinformation campaign that seems to be now in the hands of Roger Stone, the self-described “dirty trickster” serving time in federal prison for 7 felonies until Trump pardoned him. Steve Bannon, a far far right figure who got fired from his White House job, is also on the scene.
Here’s the CNN story:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/13/business/stop-the-steal-disinformation-campaign-invs/index.html

Fact and conclusion again:
Irregularities were investigated.
Some allegations are not credible enough to investigate, no matter how many times foolish people post them online.
Most of these idiocies, when investigated and used in lawsuits, are proven wrong or laughed out of court.
There was no massive voter fraud.
Even Republicans not in the Trump cult say so.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #529 on: November 15, 2020, 08:23:59 AM »
It would be interesting to go back just six months or so and look for all the articles that warned of stolen elections, the dangers of fraud, etc. Just last year Elizabeth Warren was sounding the alarm. Hillary Clinton warned Biden not to concede under any circumstances until it was official. Why? Because it might get into a court battle, and public perception of who was trying to steal the election from whom would make a big difference, as it allegedly was in the aftermath of 2000. Those are experienced insiders. Given that context, it makes perfect sense that even if the normal practice is to start the transition right away, this year we ought to go the extra mile to do things by the book and not give any appearance whatsoever of trying to rush to a conclusion or deny anyone their day in court.

There is very little chance working together civilly. Why would the left want to work together with a bunch of nazis and racist xenophobes? And why would the right want to work together with people who loathe them and think they are only motivated by irrational fear and hatred? When it is just ideas— tax law, trade deals, vehicle emissions standards, etc. then hey, even if you lose and the other side mucks everything up, it isn’t personal. But when identity politics gets involved, the election is “over the soul of the nation” as Biden put it, and it becomes the forces of light vs. the forces of darkness, then the divisions don’t go away after the votes are counted. If I represent the forces of hatred, ignorance, and darkness in your eyes, then I know you aren’t serious in saying you want to work together. And if I’m not, but you haven’t apologized for saying I was, then I know you aren’t worth working together with. Magnanimity is the burden of the winner. Shy of that, divided, uncooperative government is the burden of one who wins by scorching the earth. And make no mistake, identity politics is scorched earth politics.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #530 on: November 15, 2020, 08:58:29 AM »
There is very little chance working together civilly.

Of course, I hold out some limited and qualified hope that this may prove to be untrue in more cases than not, but seeing the televised clashes of Trump supporters and Biden supporters on the streets of DC, my optimism took a direct hit. If the anti-Trump loathing even on this forum is any indication of sentiment outside these limited discussions, my hope again takes more hits.  The division grows. Lord have mercy...
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #531 on: November 15, 2020, 09:46:41 AM »
I don’t think the people on the streets of Washington yesterday making all those disturbances were typical of either Trump or Biden supporters.
P.S. to Robert Johnson:
I do not ignore people. I consider that rude and destructive to the broader nature of this modest form. I don’t respond to everyone, some postings being too off-the-wall to merit response. I have accepted an urging of the moderators not to respond to a particular poster, whose comments have often led us astray.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 10:47:46 AM by Charles Austin »
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mariemeyer

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #532 on: November 15, 2020, 11:35:00 AM »
There is very little chance working together civilly.

Of course, I hold out some limited and qualified hope that this may prove to be untrue in more cases than not, but seeing the televised clashes of Trump supporters and Biden supporters on the streets of DC, my optimism took a direct hit. If the anti-Trump loathing even on this forum is any indication of sentiment outside these limited discussions, my hope again takes more hits.  The division grows. Lord have mercy...

Anti-Trump opinions have been expressed on this forum as have pro-Trump opinions. Opinions on both sides reflected the division that exists in our country.  On what basis is the claim made that the anti-Trump posts on this Forum expressed personal loathing of the man?

Interestingly the front page of the Sunday New York Times called attention to the Rev. Fred Krebs, a Lutheran pastor in Mason, Texas. " "We pray for peaceful transition,' he told his congregation of 50 people."  Krebs continued, "Defining people strictly by their parties is not a good thing. And I've learned that sometimes people think more deeply when they get into a conversation than when we just start labeling one another."
 
Marie Meyer

 

Julio

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #533 on: November 15, 2020, 11:50:18 AM »
A couple that we have known for years have been spreading info on FB about a software program (Dominion) being a part of  'Steal the Vote.'   Rather surprised to learn that these good people have been influenced in this matter.  Here is the truth behind the matter.  The count by the way is now Biden 306, Trump 232.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/technology/no-dominion-voting-machines-did-not-delete-trump-votes.html
Nothing Mr. Teigen can say negates the fact that previously it was noted that the state of Texas has refused on multiple occasions to certify the substandard dominion voting systems ... most recently in 2019.

It remains ironically concerning that much of the questionable votes in the 2020 election were “recorded“ using the faulty Dominion equipment.

Using this DuckDuckGo link, numerous articles demonstrate that there is a valid concern about this foreign based voting system.

Again remember ... the State of Texas had declined on multiple occasions to certify Dominion equipment for state wide use.  Further review of this equipment should be independently performed to alleviate these concerns in the future.

Norman Teigen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #534 on: November 15, 2020, 12:37:46 PM »
When I started this thread I had hopes that we might pass from acrimony towards harmony both in the larger context and here on this venerable Forum.  Trump and his supporters will not concede.  Past Presidents have graciously congratulated their successors.   Trump, if he does not go on his own, might be escorted out by the Secret Service.    I do hope that the country will move on after Trump goes. I believe the the participants on the Forum are engaged in considerations of over-all good things and will move away from fear and hysteria.   I read with great interest how parish pastors continue to minister in the fact of great odds.    I do fear  that the misinformation and ugly comments which the 'Julios' perpetuate will continue. 
Norman Teigen

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #535 on: November 15, 2020, 01:03:58 PM »
And here is kind of a hoot, Mr. Teigen.
Most of the links in that “duck duck” site show that  the dominion machines were tested, verified, and it did not reveal any Reason to believe that they contributed to errors or fraud. The fact that some states chose not to use them means nothing. And some states, according to those reports, that had problems, learned that the problems were attributable to human error and easily fixed.
And you are very right. We should be moving on, looking forward.
But the Trump supporters refuse to accept reality. They continue to cast doubt on the election, with the repetition of lies based upon no facts currently in evidence. Someone here who is clearly not a foolish idiot, even brings up “vibes“ about the vote count.
They refuse to speak of Biden with respect. They refuse to acknowledge that at this point we do know that he has received enough electoral votes to be considered president-elect.
And then there is the man himself. Hunkered down in the White House. Posting lies and nonsense on Twitter. Waving from behind tinted limousine window at demonstrators in the Washington streets. We have a vice president who speaks as if the election has not been decided. We have key Republicans who seem to back the president’s nonsense.
We have the president making Pentagon appointments for people who were previously rejected for confirmation in those jobs.
These things are the reason it seems so hard to move on. Lies and nonsense from the president’s supporters, his refusal to accept reality.
And as we are now learning from the experts, this actually presents a very serious security threat to our nation.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 01:07:40 PM by Charles Austin »
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D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #536 on: November 15, 2020, 01:28:13 PM »
There is very little chance working together civilly.

Of course, I hold out some limited and qualified hope that this may prove to be untrue in more cases than not, but seeing the televised clashes of Trump supporters and Biden supporters on the streets of DC, my optimism took a direct hit. If the anti-Trump loathing even on this forum is any indication of sentiment outside these limited discussions, my hope again takes more hits.  The division grows. Lord have mercy...

Anti-Trump opinions have been expressed on this forum as have pro-Trump opinions. Opinions on both sides reflected the division that exists in our country.  On what basis is the claim made that the anti-Trump posts on this Forum expressed personal loathing of the man?

Interestingly the front page of the Sunday New York Times called attention to the Rev. Fred Krebs, a Lutheran pastor in Mason, Texas. " "We pray for peaceful transition,' he told his congregation of 50 people."  Krebs continued, "Defining people strictly by their parties is not a good thing. And I've learned that sometimes people think more deeply when they get into a conversation than when we just start labeling one another."
 
Marie Meyer

The word "loathing" can mean "extreme disgust, a feeling of aversion, great dislike, etc."

I think that if one took the time to review the original election thread and this one as its successor you will find posts that have such disgust and aversion to Trump.  One post noted "the malice that some of us feel concerning Trump."  Malice is "extreme ill will or spite."  The president has been described as a "sick, desperate man." 

Not all disagreement with the president has expressed loathing for the man, but some has.  As I noted upstream it would be very difficult to express any appreciation for supposed good things that Trump may have done during this presidency given the view of the man himself.  Trump was far from a perfect man. He had many failings and character flaws and shortcomings from what some expected in a president.  But if we took an honest took at any of the presidents throughout history we would find faults and failings in all of them.

But connection with Trump also elicits some of this disgust, and thus my concern for productive dialogue for the future.  But we'll see. I'd be happy to have my concerns proven wrong.

Perhaps we can take a hint from the venerable President Lincoln:
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Second Inaugural Address, 1865
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #537 on: November 15, 2020, 01:37:45 PM »
When I started this thread I had hopes that we might pass from acrimony towards harmony both in the larger context and here on this venerable Forum.  Trump and his supporters will not concede.  Past Presidents have graciously congratulated their successors.   Trump, if he does not go on his own, might be escorted out by the Secret Service.    I do hope that the country will move on after Trump goes. I believe the the participants on the Forum are engaged in considerations of over-all good things and will move away from fear and hysteria.   I read with great interest how parish pastors continue to minister in the fact of great odds.    I do fear  that the misinformation and ugly comments which the 'Julios' perpetuate will continue.

I do not believe that the Secret Service will escort the current president out forcefully.  I have faith that he will leave on his own. In the end he might actually be relieved to do so.

As far as moving on, I wonder. Many serious disagreement remain with or without Trump as a foil.  As I have been saying, I hope that Biden will maintain his historically middle road when it comes to suggesting legislation and in enacting executive orders.  If he is truly concerned for unity and healing he will have to move a bit right to hear his opponents.

One area that needs agreement right out of the gate is aid to Americans still suffering from COVID-related unemployment and business shutdowns.  The current president is urging that a financial aid package be passed. I cannot understand why Pelosi can't meet folks halfway and agree to a lesser package now for immediate relief.  If she wants more, then pass additional legislation.  But we can't even meet half way on such a critical issue, with or without the current occupant of the White House.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #538 on: November 15, 2020, 01:41:00 PM »
And here is kind of a hoot, Mr. Teigen.
Most of the links in that “duck duck” site show that  the dominion machines were tested, verified, and it did not reveal any Reason to believe that they contributed to errors or fraud. The fact that some states chose not to use them means nothing. And some states, according to those reports, that had problems, learned that the problems were attributable to human error and easily fixed.
And you are very right. We should be moving on, looking forward.
But the Trump supporters refuse to accept reality. They continue to cast doubt on the election, with the repetition of lies based upon no facts currently in evidence. Someone here who is clearly not a foolish idiot, even brings up “vibes“ about the vote count.
They refuse to speak of Biden with respect. They refuse to acknowledge that at this point we do know that he has received enough electoral votes to be considered president-elect.
And then there is the man himself. Hunkered down in the White House. Posting lies and nonsense on Twitter. Waving from behind tinted limousine window at demonstrators in the Washington streets. We have a vice president who speaks as if the election has not been decided. We have key Republicans who seem to back the president’s nonsense.
We have the president making Pentagon appointments for people who were previously rejected for confirmation in those jobs.
These things are the reason it seems so hard to move on. Lies and nonsense from the president’s supporters, his refusal to accept reality.
And as we are now learning from the experts, this actually presents a very serious security threat to our nation.
You said it wrong. The line is, "This is extremely dangerous to our democracy."

https://notthebee.com/article/take-a-peak-under-the-orwellian-hood-with-this-clip-of-objective-media-reading-the-exact-same-script-telling-you-what-to-believe
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 01:44:56 PM by peter_speckhard »

JEdwards

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #539 on: November 15, 2020, 02:03:14 PM »
https://vashiva.com/dr-shiva-live-mit-phd-analysis-of-michigan-votes-reveals-unfortunate-truth-of-u-s-voting-systems/

This is the sort of conspiracy theory floating around out there. The thing to do is to answer it. And by answer it, I don't mean assure everyone that safeguards are in place to prevent cheating, or claim that this kooky MIT statistician is not to be taken seriously. That is avoiding it, which only lets the idea that the election is stolen fester.

Is his data wrong? Are his systemic assumptions flawed? Is there a perfectly reasonable explanation for what on the surface appears to be obvious chicanery? If so, let's hear it. Take up the argument. But the more the media simply shushes everyone, as they did with the Hunter Biden scandal, the more they simply lose credibility.

In this case, the argument is simple. The data in three Michigan counties (but not all counties) shows an unnaturally uniform correlation between the percentage of people in any given precinct who voted straight Republican and the degree to which Trump underperformed the straight Republican ticket. That is, Trump overperforms the GOP ticket at uniform rates in highly Dem precincts, but underperforms the GOP in Republican precincts. That is to be expected given the dynamics of the race. What is not to be expected and is not explicable (apart from algorithmic bias in the tabulation) is the uniform rate of underperformance in a straight diagonal line in all three counties. Barring the explanation that the votes were counted with a weighted bias factored in, what is the explanation?

I don't think most people will take Dr. Shiva seriously. He is a classic internet guru sleuth type. But if you want people taking for granted that elections were free and fair and not shady or dubious, then I think his recommendations are sound. For example, the way it is done in Michigan, the voting machine takes a picture of the ballot. It is that picture that is counted. But the pictures are not saved. An easy way to disprove algorithmic chicanery, which would be to do a recount manually, is not possible. It should be. There should be one to one correlation between physical, re-countable ballots and registered voters who voted. Where there isn't, why not?
I think it will be good for the country if we can maximize the number of people who believe the election was conducted fairly, even if they don't like the results.  For this reason, I think it is fine to allow legal challenges supported by specific allegations to be evaluated as provided by law.  But a word of caution about the multiplying "statistical proofs" of cheating.  It is one thing to do a statistical analysis to evaluate a clearly-defined hypothesis that has been formulated prior to analyzing the data (the technical term is a pre-specified hypothesis).  It is nearly worthless to point to even extreme anomalies in a large data set as proof of anything without having a pre-specified hypothesis, because it is nearly certain that any large data set will contain hugely improbable coincidences. 

To take an example from poker, suppose you are dealt a five-card hand consisting of the two of spades, the four of hearts, the six of diamonds, the eight of clubs, and the ten of spades.  This is a remarkable hand in that it includes all the suits and all the even numbers.  The odds of being dealt this exact hand are roughly 2.6 million to one against, making it rarer than a royal flush.  But it won't win you any money, because this unusual hand has not been "pre-specified" as a winner according to the rules of poker. 

Peace,
Jon
I don't think that analogy holds, for the simple reason that elections have built-in pre-specified rule that the most votes wins. Anything that systemically skews in the same direction once actual candidate preference has been accounted for becomes evidence of manipulation. It is not as complex as poker. More like playing War with kids. My kids used to rig the deck before challenging me. Amazingly, they would have all aces and kings to start off the game.

Say, for example, that you discovered that everyone whose last name began with B voted for Biden. That would be clear evidence of vote tampering or fraud if the sample size were more than a few hundred. But there is no way you could have that hypothesis in advance. You'd have to discover it. To put it in poker terms, if an ace falls out of the dealer's sleeve, that is evidence of cheating even if you didn't hypothesize in advance he was cheating and couldn't prove empirically that he won any given hand by cheating. In one of LBJ's rigged elections, the people handling it forgot to stagger their fake votes, so it turned out his voters supposedly voted in alphabetical order.

In the case at hand, (again, I've not analyzed the data myself, so I can't vouch that his graphs are accurate) there is a clear skew that is best explained by an algorithm weighting the votes. Where common sense would expect a more or less straight horizontal line, as in War common sense would expect a more or less equal distribution of high cards in either half of the shuffled deck, we get instead a clear, straight diagonal line, nve that would be easy to produce with a weighted algorithm and very hard to explain any other way. It isn't as though he discovered an anomaly that is mere correlation, like those standard "If the Redskins win the week before the election, a Republican wins the white house," kind of thing, where they're just retrofitting circumstances from a huge pool of noise data to find one that matches.
No, it is better explained here:

https://youtu.be/aokNwKx7gM8

The whole video is worth watching, but a key observation is that the plot of Republican/Trump voting patterns allegedly showing that Trump was robbed looks almost exactly like the analogous plot of Biden/Democratic voters, implying that Biden, too must have been "robbed".

I realize that this may be playing whack-a-mole, but I advise extreme caution in giving too much credence to pseudo-scientific "proofs" of fraud.

Peace,
Jon
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 02:15:56 PM by JEdwards »