Author Topic: Now that the 2020 Election is over....  (Read 45489 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #450 on: November 13, 2020, 12:41:20 PM »
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.
I had hoped that the United States would show greater respect for the rights of people than did Nero, or do you hold him up as a model of good government?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #451 on: November 13, 2020, 12:49:09 PM »
How do you follow the way of Jesus with your life if you do not have correct beliefs about Him and His teachings?


The great commandment(s) (which come from the Old Testament, not just from Jesus).


The golden rule - which is found in nearly all religions.

Quote
How would you even know what the way is?


Prayer, meditation, scripture reading, and a belief that when Jesus is Lord, there is a Holy Spirit in my life helping and guiding my thoughts and actions.

Quote
I assume your sermons are not simply you saying "Jesus is Lord!"


… and what does it mean for our lives to confess that Jesus is Lord.

You err at the outset when you separate the Old Testament from its source.


The command to love neighbor in Leviticus was compiled by the "P" source using traditional material.
The command to love God in Deuteronomy was compiled by the "D" source using traditional material.


Happy now?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #452 on: November 13, 2020, 12:50:37 PM »
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.
I had hoped that the United States would show greater respect for the rights of people than did Nero, or do you hold him up as a model of good government?


Well, he was the emperor when Paul wrote Romans 13.


If Christianity survived the periods of anti-Christian persecutions of Nero and some emperors after him, it will certainly survive any presidents we may elect.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 12:52:12 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #453 on: November 13, 2020, 01:05:20 PM »
How do you follow the way of Jesus with your life if you do not have correct beliefs about Him and His teachings?


The great commandment(s) (which come from the Old Testament, not just from Jesus).


The golden rule - which is found in nearly all religions.

Quote
How would you even know what the way is?


Prayer, meditation, scripture reading, and a belief that when Jesus is Lord, there is a Holy Spirit in my life helping and guiding my thoughts and actions.

Quote
I assume your sermons are not simply you saying "Jesus is Lord!"


… and what does it mean for our lives to confess that Jesus is Lord.

You err at the outset when you separate the Old Testament from its source.


The command to love neighbor in Leviticus was compiled by the "P" source using traditional material.
The command to love God in Deuteronomy was compiled by the "D" source using traditional material.


Happy now?

I'm unsurprised now.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

JEdwards

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #454 on: November 13, 2020, 01:10:50 PM »
We can certainly have meaningful discussions about what it means to confess that Jesus is (my) Lord. As I've said in other posts, answering the question, "What do you believe?" is much less important than answering the question, "What difference does it make in your life that you believe?"

Q. Which of the religions of the world gives to its followers the greatest happiness?

A. While it lasts, the religion of worshipping oneself is the best.

I have an elderly acquaintance of about eighty, who has lived a life of unbroken selfishness and self-admiration from the earliest years, and is, more or less, I regret to say one of the happiest men I know. From the moral point of view it is very difficult! I am not approaching the question from that angle. As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity. I am certain there must be a patent American article on the market which will suit you far better, but I can't give any advice on it.
~C.S Lewis, God in the Dock, "Answers to Questions on Christianity" (1944)


It sounds like C.S. Lewis' acquaintance had a faith that made a very significant, positive difference on his life.

Peace,
Jon

Dan Fienen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #455 on: November 13, 2020, 01:19:51 PM »
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.
I had hoped that the United States would show greater respect for the rights of people than did Nero, or do you hold him up as a model of good government?


Well, he was the emperor when Paul wrote Romans 13.


If Christianity survived the periods of anti-Christian persecutions of Nero and some emperors after him, it will certainly survive any presidents we may elect.
Does that mean that Paul was a fan of Emperor Nero? Certainly Christianity will survive the Biden administration, of that I have no doubt. With David Garner I marvel at your embrace of martyrdom for others. You seem to positively relish the idea of those whose Christian beliefs you dispute suffering for their faith. Do you hope that the government will dish out martyrdom to those you disagree with? Would you be willing to light Nero's garden for your support of same sex marriage?


Our rebirth in baptism makes us citizens of God's kingdom. Our birth in the United States, or naturalization, makes us citizens of the United States with attendants rights, privileges, and responsibilities. As citizens of the United States we are granted a measure of say in how the United States is governed and its laws. A Christian's right to have a say in U.S. governance is not reduced by his being a Christian nor by being a conservative Christian. Why should Christian citizens not hold the government of their nation to the rights recognized by law and advocate for policies and law that they think will benefit the nation and her people.


Paul was a Christian who was also, by birth, a Roman citizen. Paul was not adverse to asserting his Roman citizenship and the rights and privileges that his citizen entitled him to when it was advantageous. Paul, so tradition tells us, did suffer martyrdom under Nero but before that he did not actively seek martyrdom but actually asserted his citizenship to gain better treatment by local authorities and in at least one case used that citizenship to appeal the legal case against him to a higher court.


The possibility of persecution for the faith is a possibility that each of us must face. Fortunately, the degree of persecution that we might face here in America is much less than elsewhere in the world and at other times. And yet, is there any good reason that we as Christians should not assert the rights and privileges that we have as U.S. citizens and the protections that the Constitution and laws afford for the free exercise of our faith, even if some of our brethren disagree with those beliefs and seem to wish that we would face legal penalty for practicing them?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #456 on: November 13, 2020, 03:57:37 PM »
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.
I had hoped that the United States would show greater respect for the rights of people than did Nero, or do you hold him up as a model of good government?


Well, he was the emperor when Paul wrote Romans 13.


If Christianity survived the periods of anti-Christian persecutions of Nero and some emperors after him, it will certainly survive any presidents we may elect.
Does that mean that Paul was a fan of Emperor Nero? Certainly Christianity will survive the Biden administration, of that I have no doubt. With David Garner I marvel at your embrace of martyrdom for others. You seem to positively relish the idea of those whose Christian beliefs you dispute suffering for their faith. Do you hope that the government will dish out martyrdom to those you disagree with? Would you be willing to light Nero's garden for your support of same sex marriage?


Our rebirth in baptism makes us citizens of God's kingdom. Our birth in the United States, or naturalization, makes us citizens of the United States with attendants rights, privileges, and responsibilities. As citizens of the United States we are granted a measure of say in how the United States is governed and its laws. A Christian's right to have a say in U.S. governance is not reduced by his being a Christian nor by being a conservative Christian. Why should Christian citizens not hold the government of their nation to the rights recognized by law and advocate for policies and law that they think will benefit the nation and her people.


Paul was a Christian who was also, by birth, a Roman citizen. Paul was not adverse to asserting his Roman citizenship and the rights and privileges that his citizen entitled him to when it was advantageous. Paul, so tradition tells us, did suffer martyrdom under Nero but before that he did not actively seek martyrdom but actually asserted his citizenship to gain better treatment by local authorities and in at least one case used that citizenship to appeal the legal case against him to a higher court.


The possibility of persecution for the faith is a possibility that each of us must face. Fortunately, the degree of persecution that we might face here in America is much less than elsewhere in the world and at other times. And yet, is there any good reason that we as Christians should not assert the rights and privileges that we have as U.S. citizens and the protections that the Constitution and laws afford for the free exercise of our faith, even if some of our brethren disagree with those beliefs and seem to wish that we would face legal penalty for practicing them?


Certainly Christian Americans should exert their rights as citizens of our country. We should vote for the candidates we prefer. We should vote for ballot measures we agree with. However, we should also recognize that we are a nation where "majority rules." Christians are not a majority. "Non-affiliated" is the largest religious group in America. According to The Association of Religion Data Archives, in 2010 there were 150.6 million Americans associated with religious groups (all religions); and 158.1 million Americans who were "unclaimed."
https://www.thearda.com/rcms2010/r/u/rcms2010_99_US_name_2010.asp


Given the makeup of our nation, it's understandable that laws and ballot measures contrary to Christian beliefs could be approved by majority rule. Just consider trying to keep Sunday morning free from sporting events so that youth can attend worship. I was battling that issue at my first parish in Southern California in 1976.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #457 on: November 13, 2020, 04:02:30 PM »
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.

John_Hannah

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #458 on: November 13, 2020, 04:25:21 PM »
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.

The answer is absentee ballots in states where they are not allowed to count ahead of time. Florida and Ohio are examples of states that do allow advance counting. It would be good if all states changed to that before next time.

Nothing untoward has been uncovered thus far and that's likely not for neglect or unwillingness to investigate, especially in red states. All states have required procedures to audit the count before certification so it's possible something strange will turn up. Still there's the administration's Homeland Security asserting that it was the most secure election ever.    :)

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

JEdwards

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #459 on: November 13, 2020, 04:41:16 PM »
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.

The answer is absentee ballots in states where they are not allowed to count ahead of time. Florida and Ohio are examples of states that do allow advance counting. It would be good if all states changed to that before next time.

Nothing untoward has been uncovered thus far and that's likely not for neglect or unwillingness to investigate, especially in red states. All states have required procedures to audit the count before certification so it's possible something strange will turn up. Still there's the administration's Homeland Security asserting that it was the most secure election ever.    :)

Peace, JOHN
It's also worth noting that in all of the contested states, the rules for when absentee ballots could be processed were set by Republican legislatures.  I acknowledge that in Pennsylvania, there are legitimate questions about whether executive officials or courts improperly disregarded the instructions of the legislature.  But it was well-known for weeks before the election that Biden voters disproportionately intended to vote early, and Trump voters disproportionately intended to vote on Election Day.  It's a little rich to make rules that make it highly likely that most of the opposing party's candidate's votes will be counted last, and then cite a dramatic come from behind victory as inherently suspicious.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #460 on: November 13, 2020, 05:14:18 PM »
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.

The answer is absentee ballots in states where they are not allowed to count ahead of time. Florida and Ohio are examples of states that do allow advance counting. It would be good if all states changed to that before next time.

Nothing untoward has been uncovered thus far and that's likely not for neglect or unwillingness to investigate, especially in red states. All states have required procedures to audit the count before certification so it's possible something strange will turn up. Still there's the administration's Homeland Security asserting that it was the most secure election ever.    :)

Peace, JOHN
It's also worth noting that in all of the contested states, the rules for when absentee ballots could be processed were set by Republican legislatures.  I acknowledge that in Pennsylvania, there are legitimate questions about whether executive officials or courts improperly disregarded the instructions of the legislature.  But it was well-known for weeks before the election that Biden voters disproportionately intended to vote early, and Trump voters disproportionately intended to vote on Election Day.  It's a little rich to make rules that make it highly likely that most of the opposing party's candidate's votes will be counted last, and then cite a dramatic come from behind victory as inherently suspicious.
I don't think that a come from behind victory is suspicious in and of itself. Happens all the time. What doesn't happen all the time is what people are saying happened this time-- most of the reliable indicators pointed to a Trump victory, while extreme outliers like the turnout in Milwaukee County, in which Biden apparently did much better than Obama ever did, favor Biden. All it does it make people want to see what happened and not rush into anything. Again, it is a vibe thing, not an empirical data thing at thing point.

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #461 on: November 13, 2020, 05:57:14 PM »
Peter writes:
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.
I comment:
And these have been very very strange years.

Peter writes:
To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did.
I comment:
See above. You don’t think these are weird times? Just because something has been true since 1980 means nothing in a time like ours.

Peter writes:
His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening.
I comment:
“Expectations” are often dashed in troubled times. Or are you referring to the “polls,” the infamous “polls.” Pollsters today are admitting the ways they messed up. And could it be (I know this is hard for you but…), could it be that even when people say they are “better off”, they still fault the president for mishandling the virus, maybe they don’t like his lies and maybe they are tired of all the chaos he has brought on.

Peter writes:
Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.
I comment:
Vibe? Vibe? You’re throwing hard data, statistics and actually counted ballots into the dumpster because of a vibe? I’m shocked. I’m shocked that you, Peter, would go so far just to raise doubts about the failures of your guy.
   Could it be that some conspiracy against the president was so vast, so gigantic that it included secretaries of state in three dozen states, some of them Republican, tens of thousands of poll workers, and who knows how many balloting machines, so many that it would probably take a battalion of hackers to throw them off the straight and narrow. And the people in charge of our national cyber security, who were on the watch for foreign interference, said this was the safest election ever.
   Have you read about the timing of counting absentee and mail-in ballots? Most of those totals came late in the whole process.
  Of course, I have my own view on how things went and why. A lot of people are tired of Trump. They are tired of the chaos. And the bungled response to the virus was, I think, the deal-breaker. Some Trumpers are fanatically loyal nevertheless.
   But he got so many votes? Yes. I also believe there are those who, though they probably despise Trump as a man as much as I do, will not ever vote for a Democrat or Progressive.
   Bottom line: He lost. The election was not taken from him. He lost. There was no massive voter fraud or rigging. He lost. I happen to think that Biden won, but maybe he will be president not because he “won” (although he did receive the proper number of votes and worked hard for those votes), but that Trump lost. People are tired of him. And he has nothing to offer us on the critical issues of the virus and domestic peace. His leadership was a disaster; and he added to civil unrest rather than helped to heal it.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #462 on: November 13, 2020, 05:59:57 PM »
https://spectator.org/pennsylvania-voting-doesnt-add-up/

From the article, after some number crunching-- "In other words, Donald Trump vastly outperformed his numbers nationally but vastly underperformed them in Pennsylvania. And if you believe that, then I have a thousand acres of farmland to sell you in Philadelphia."

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #463 on: November 13, 2020, 06:08:43 PM »

Vibe? Vibe? You’re throwing hard data, statistics and actually counted ballots into the dumpster because of a vibe? I’m shocked. I’m shocked that you, Peter, would go so far just to raise doubts about the failures of your guy.
   
Charles, please grab your alpb-issue paper bag and breath into it. There. In... out. In... out. There. Did I say I was throwing data and statistics in the dumpster? No. No I did not. I was explaining, perfectly calmly and rationally, why I find the data somewhat counter-intuitive and am willing wait for an explanation and final certification. The sense I get is that something very weird happened. You apparently agree, but think we should chalk it up to 2020 and accept it without looking into it. I prefer that it be looked into.

Biden's new chief of staff claimed elections were rigged in a 2014 tweet. Elizabeth Warren and several other Dem senators were alarmed about loose election security quite recently. Hillary Clinton said that Biden should under no circumstances whatsoever concede before the official certification. Why is it so shocking that someone would think it possible?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #464 on: November 13, 2020, 06:31:47 PM »
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.


Many if not all of the shifts in voting were predicted by pollsters and the news agencies I watched. They knew that mail-in ballots were skewed towards Biden (especially since Trump told supporters not to use mail-in ballots, even though he did). They knew that populated areas tend to skew towards Biden, and those votes would take longer to count.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]