Author Topic: Now that the 2020 Election is over....  (Read 62313 times)

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #420 on: November 13, 2020, 08:48:44 AM »
I look at how the U.S. allows the Amish to live their beliefs and I have little fears that the government would force compliance, except where a business wants state money, or their practices are harmful to others.

Well, as long as we have the strong "harmful to others (according to Pastor Stoffregen and people who agree with him)" standard, I guess we'll all be okay, huh?

Of course, the reality is it isn't that simple, and because the 1st Amendment protects my rights, I don't want it to be.  So I'll rest on the Supreme Court's wise counsel in these matters and vote against buffoons who would pack that court with like-minded ideologues who want to overturn the 1st Amendment, if not directly, certainly by judicial fiat.


The 1st Amendment also protects the rights of your neighbor. If your neighbors do not want a church/synagogue/temple built in their neighborhood, that can (and have) kept the land from being zoned for a religious building. There are places where you are not allowed to have a Bible study in your home; not because they are studying the Bible, because the housing area and parking area are not zoned or equipped for such gatherings. The 1st Amendment doesn't allow people to do whatever they want to do under the umbrella of freedom of religion. There are limits.


While not universally true, the state allows the Amish to drive their horse-drawn carts on the road, but they are required to use the slow moving vehicle sign on them. Christian Scientists are allowed to let God heal the sick, but when their religion puts children in danger of death or a child dies, there can be legal repercussions as in this case: https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/23/us/supreme-court-roundup-christian-scientists-rebuffed-in-ruling-by-supreme-court.html

Literally no one has suggested the First Amendment is unlimited.  But neither is it as limited as you all would like to believe.

Every time liberal groupthink runs up against First Amendment protections, you all side with liberal groupthink.  That is the problem.  You want to force people to adopt your views.

Some portions of the Amish community actually sued Pennsylvania contending that the bright orange triangle required for their buggies violated their moral objection to "decorations" or some such frippery. They lost.
As everyone here knows, the question of the aid going to the students or to the school is a multi-faceted, tough one not easy to sort. Personally, I don't think I have too much objection, but it's not an issue for which I am willing to mount the barricades on one side or another. I do worry about anything that would undercut support for public schools, which educate the vast majority of our young people.
And should a church - whether congregation, synod, district, diocese or denomination - desire to have a school run totally under whatever doctrinal provisions held by that entity, they are free to do so. If someone who does not subscribe to those doctrinal provisions applies for a job there, I have no objection to the school saying "you cannot work here unless...." OTOH, if federal or state money is somehow flowing into that school....
Just teaching that gay marriage is an abomination in the sight of God to be shunned by all faithful believers is not in itself "hate speech." But using state funds to in any way spread that teaching is another problem.
I hope that in considering the future of education, we do not get locked in, hung up, tightly-wrapped or breathless over the "religious freedom" thing. There are more critical issues in education and in the land that need our attention.

Yes.  It would be awful if you couldn't force Christian schools to hire gay teachers wouldn't it?

Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.

If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.

I'll remember that the next time you go on a screed about closed communion or female pastors.  "You're all ever so mean!"

"Jesus is Lord was sufficient in biblical times!"

It's like a handy little talisman that allows one to wave away any legitimate discussion through the most absurd reductionism ever.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #421 on: November 13, 2020, 08:52:18 AM »
Now that I have taken a few days to learn more about the history of the Equality Act and the dynamics that may be in play once this election is settled, I realize that the chances of it taking form as this current congress envisioned are probably not as high.  With a razor think majority in the House it will be more difficult to pass legislation that is controversial, and maybe that will bring about a bit more bi-partisan dialogue.  I remain hopeful that the Senate will stay in Republican control, even if that, too, is a 'razor thin' majority.  I'm not looking to stonewall everything that Biden proposes, but I want to know that there won't be the kind of legislative bulldozing that happened in Obama's first two years when he had a locked in majority across the board. As far as I'm concerned, the Equality Act can take a back seat for the near foreseeable future.

All that said, I think that some of Biden's initial acts on "Day One" regarding the pandemic may turn out to be more symbolic than substantive.  Two things I hear about in the news now are lockdowns and masks.  Biden would apparently like to see a nationwide mask mandate. He can do that, but I would want to know how that fits into a system where such decisions are usually made on a state level. I think that legally it will turn out to be more of a presidential encouragement. Also, Biden and Co. are walking back the idea of nationwide lockdown and looking more at targeted lockdowns.  Current polling in the US indicates that less than half of Americans are supportive of a nationwide lockdown. Again, these are decisions usually left to states, not the federal government, and rightly so as they understand their regions better.  So, again, an encouragement to look at lockdowns, but probably no real authority to implement them.

I think that coming out of this election Democrats are going to have to take a serious look over the next two years about their strategy going into the midterms.  If they allow the far left to push them too far they risk loosing seats again.  They would do well to dial back the more progressive plans and work with Republicans on projects both can find bi-partisan cooperation.  That may be dreaming a bit, but Biden here can take the lead if he wants his legacy to be unity, not division.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 08:54:34 AM by D. Engebretson »
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #422 on: November 13, 2020, 09:10:23 AM »
I'm curious whether the Supreme Court's ruling in Bostock v. Clayton County might not signal a less fevered need for the "Equality Act."  After all, there is a consistent standard, imposed by the Court, via application of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act (which is going nowhere).

I wonder if any moderate Democrats are climbing out on a limb to ensure passage of that law given the Court's ruling and what would seem to be the lack of its necessity in light of the Bostock decision.

If there is a perceived burning need, it would seem that gives the game away with regard to the present discussion.  Because the Court said:

"Under Title VII, too, we do not purport to address bathrooms, locker rooms, or anything else of the kind. The only question before us is whether an employer who fires someone simply for being homosexual or transgender has discharged or otherwise discriminated against that individual “because of such individual’s sex.” As used in Title VII, the term “ ‘discriminate against’ ” refers to “distinctions or differences in treatment that injure protected individuals.”

.....and again......

"We are also deeply concerned with preserving the promise of the free exercise of religion enshrined in our Constitution; that guarantee lies at the heart of our pluralistic society. But worries about how Title VII may intersect with religious liberties are nothing new; they even predate the statute’s passage. As a result of its deliberations in adopting the law, Congress included an express statutory exception for reli- gious organizations. §2000e–1(a). This Court has also recognized that the First Amendment can bar the application of employment discrimination laws “to claims concerning the employment relationship between a religious institution and its ministers.”

If indeed there is burning need to extend Title VII, rather than simply recognize that it protects LGBT people, then we can know with relative confidence where that arrow is aimed.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #423 on: November 13, 2020, 09:41:22 AM »
And nearly all of those executioners’ blocks were owned and operated by established regimes attempting to keep segments of the populace under control, suppress dissent and remove troublemakers who dared to challenge the established order.
   Christians indeed suffered and died. Then, when they came to power, Christians took ownership of the executioners’ blocks. The bloody tide of ideological oppression ebbed and flowed.
   There is no bloody tide reaching the beaches of our land. We have instead trivialized persecution and monetized flawed concepts of “freedom”.
   -Is my child’s teacher gay and married? Oh, no! My faith is under attack!
  -So I can’t strip-mine a mountain or operate a factory that kills and sickens workers and neighbors? Oh, no! My freedom is under attack!
  -You say I cannot refuse services to people of a different race or lifestyle? Oh, no! You won’t let me practice my religion!
  -You won’t force nonbelievers to have their taxes run my church schools and propagate my faith? Oh, no! That’s religious persecution!
Do we really think that acknowledging the marriage of that gay teacher, selling clothing or cakes to gay couples, accepting regulations to save our neighbor’s health and clean air and water or being denied public funds for parish schools is a loss of true freedom or is religious oppression marching us towards an executioners’ block?
  We should give the new administration a chance. We should have a serious discussion, not project the worst.
Were all the sentences of your post before the last two an attempt to have a serious discussion and not to project the worst?

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #424 on: November 13, 2020, 09:52:45 AM »
I get an email summary of the New York Times headlines every day.  I don't always look at it, and sometimes I just delete it to clear up my inbox.  But every now and then something catches my eye.  I thought this was an interesting summary of the assessment of this year's election polling:

Fool us once …

The polls were wrong again, and much of America wants to know why.

Dozens of pre-election polls suggested that Joe Biden would beat President Trump by a wide margin, but the race instead came down to one or two percentage points in a handful of states. Polls also indicated that Democrats would do much better than they did in congressional races.

So what happened? Here are six key points:

1. In the last few years, Republican voters seem to have become less willing to respond to polls. Maybe that shouldn’t be surprising, given Trump’s attacks on the media, science and other institutions.

2. This phenomenon isn’t simply about working-class whites. Pollsters were careful to include more of these voters in their samples than four years ago, when the polls also missed, but it didn’t solve the problem. One likely reason: Even within demographic groups — say, independent, older, middle-income white women — people who responded to polls this year leaned more Democratic than people who did not.

3. It’s also not just about Trump. Polls missed in several Senate races even more than in the presidential race, which means they did an especially poor job of finding people who voted for Biden at the top and a Republican lower down the ballot.

4. Most of the easy solutions are probably not real solutions. Since Election Day, some campaign operatives have claimed their private polls were more accurate than the public polls. That seems more false than true. Biden, Trump and both parties campaigned as if their own polls matched the public polls, focusing on some states that were not really competitive and abandoning others that were close.

5. Polls have still been more accurate over the last four years than they were for most of the 20th century. As pollsters get more information about this year’s election and what went wrong, they will try to fix the problems, much as they did in the past. A new challenge: In the smartphone age, poll response rates are far lower than they used to be.

6. We journalists can do a better job of conveying the uncertainty in polls. Polls will never be perfect. Capturing the opinions of a large, diverse country is too difficult. And in today’s closely divided U.S., small polling errors can make underdogs look like favorites and vice versa. All of us — journalists, campaign strategists and the many Americans who have become obsessed with politics — shouldn’t forget this. We just got another reminder.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #425 on: November 13, 2020, 10:07:16 AM »
Here is the full, much longer story on the analysis of the polls. It is worth reading.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/12/us/politics/election-polls-trump-biden.html

Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #426 on: November 13, 2020, 10:19:54 AM »
I get an email summary of the New York Times headlines every day.  I don't always look at it, and sometimes I just delete it to clear up my inbox.  But every now and then something catches my eye.  I thought this was an interesting summary of the assessment of this year's election polling:

Fool us once …

The polls were wrong again, and much of America wants to know why.

Dozens of pre-election polls suggested that Joe Biden would beat President Trump by a wide margin, but the race instead came down to one or two percentage points in a handful of states. Polls also indicated that Democrats would do much better than they did in congressional races.

So what happened? Here are six key points:

1. In the last few years, Republican voters seem to have become less willing to respond to polls. Maybe that shouldn’t be surprising, given media and institutional abuse of Republican voters by calling them racists and ignorant rubes for decades.

In the parlance of kids these days, FTFY.
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David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #427 on: November 13, 2020, 10:21:10 AM »
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.
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D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #428 on: November 13, 2020, 10:37:29 AM »
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Voelker

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #429 on: November 13, 2020, 10:46:18 AM »
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.
Could be bias, could be who is willing to pay more to be featured.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #430 on: November 13, 2020, 10:46:56 AM »
Doing a little experiment in light of my last inquiry....

DuckDuckGo
--Reuters, Time, NT Times, MSNBC, Microsoft News --FOX and HuffPost a bit down the page, but still on page 1.

Startpage.com
--New York Times, CNN, NBC news on page 1. FOX news on page 2.

Yahoo Search
--USA Today, Reuters, CBS, NBC..FOX is on page one, just a bit down.
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St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Tom Eckstein

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #431 on: November 13, 2020, 10:48:52 AM »
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.

Duckduckgo
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D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #432 on: November 13, 2020, 10:51:34 AM »
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.

Duckduckgo

Thanks!  Just switched it in my Firefox homepage.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Julio

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #433 on: November 13, 2020, 10:58:04 AM »
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.
Fox News should rise in stature… They have joined the other main line media organizations in censoring Trump and his administration… Neil Kabuto interrupted the president‘s press secretary a few days ago… Bias Lee claiming that they ( Fox) what are the final arbiter and what is “real” news.

Fox for the most part had joined the MSM fake news purveyors of bias news.

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #434 on: November 13, 2020, 11:09:26 AM »
Time to stop the frivolous recount demands and lawsuits surrounding the election?
Note that in 2016, there were recount attempts in WI, NV, PA, MI, and maybe other states.  There were election lawsuits in OH, AZ, NV, NC, PA, NY, and maybe other states.  Demands and lawsuits came from both Democratic and Republican parties as well as Clinton and Trump campaigns.  Somebody named Jill pushed as hard as anyone for changing outcomes, particulalry in WI.

Whining now about such demands by one candidate or party or another but having praised them another time is simply partisan positioning.  Let the system work. 

This is part of the process, unseemly as it will always seem to those on the other side of recount and lawsuit demands.  How can it be solved?  Proceed with recounts where state law requires or allows them when there is less than x votes between candidates.  Let the courts decide the merits of lawsuits.  Actually learn from an election where some jurisdictions seem to have a radically harder time allowing votes or counting votes to occur versus others that have fairly clean sailing.

Don't accept "no need to change" just because your candidate won. 
Work to make the process even better for the next time.