Author Topic: Now that the 2020 Election is over....  (Read 55963 times)

James J Eivan

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #225 on: November 10, 2020, 02:43:18 PM »
Interesting Facebook post from a family member's former pastor

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#IVoted2020
Facebook suggested I do this bit of virtue signaling. Lines were short in our polling place. Now if I could only get Facebook to distribute my devotional blog about the election...


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People have been finding it through my secondary blog, "Missing My Post." (More people have read it than usual according to WordPress stats, truth be told). Also, it is already posted on both my Facebook page and the Grace page, but Facebook has refused to let me "boost" it, and they are suppressing its distribution, keeping it from showing up in my friends' newsfeeds. But thanks for the offer.


Censorship is alive and selective .. any more reasons to believe that it is not only government that seeks to control what we share with the world.

pearson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #226 on: November 10, 2020, 02:44:37 PM »

Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?


It's what you said it is: "the passage of a resolution by a majority vote."  Nothing more.  "The will of the people" is simply a way of talking, a rhetorical flourish.  The phrase doesn't refer to anything real.  It's an exercise in linguistic opportunism.  Rousseau couldn't make the "general will" work, and neither has anyone else.

But suppose for a moment there is a "real thing" called "the will of the people."  Why should anyone believe that voting is what best represents "the will of the people"?  Why not think that this is most accurately reflected in the commercial behavior of a community?  Over the last generation or so, people have shopped more frequently, and in greater numbers, at WalMart than at neighborhood mom-and-pop stores.  So does WalMart represent "the will of the people"?  If not, why not?  Why doesn't commercial market behavior capture "the will of the people" more fairly than any sort of "voting" does?

Tom Pearson   

 

jebutler

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #227 on: November 10, 2020, 03:00:49 PM »
A former assistant in the attorney generals office has said that the president’s refusal to deal with the transition presents a security risk for the nation because it deprives Biden of access to critical information and proper time to prepare for becoming the president.

Who said this? Give a name.

Since the New York Times identified Miles Taylor as a "senior administration official" then I think we should be highly suspicious of anonymous sources. "An assistant" can mean...anything.

He also said that the Attorney General Barr’s order to involve his office in the investigations about voter fraud breaks a 40 year policy of the attorney generals office, in which it is made clear that the office will not Investigate elections in ways that would suggest a political motive or cast doubt on the validity of the election. That would be determined after all aspects of the election are completed.

How does investigating possible voter fraud "suggest a political motive"? Are you saying that there couldn't be fraud on both sides?

If fraud was committed, shouldn't it be investigated?

And if it questions the validity of an election...so what? Is the alleged assistant arguing that as long as fraud gets the guy he wants elected, then its OK? If Trump were elected and there was evidence of fraud, he'd be OK with that, because, it would challenge the validity of the election? Are you arguing that? You seem to be.

Of course, you think LBJ ended his reelection campaign because he felt responsible for Vietnam...

Finally the veteran attorney in the attorney general’s office who would normally deal with such things has resigned from his position, but not from the AG office, after Attorney General Barr’s actions, And by the way, Barr has said that he has not seen any evidence of serious voter fraud.

How do we know any of this? You have an anonymous alleged assistant. I have a name for you: Miles Taylor, the New York Times "senior administration official."

BTW, if Barr hasn't seen any evidence of fraud, then he'll probably end any investigation quickly, won't he? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe he's doing this in order to put to rest any false allegations so that Biden isn't dogged by them?  Or is the 8th commandment beyond you?

When will honest Republicans With access to the president or any adult who might still be in the White House or near the president tell him that this is over? His selfish petulance is actually hurting the nation.

Did you feel the same way about Al Gore? By his actions, he set a precedent. Or is it only Democrats that can act petulant?

Wait a minute. You've been reading Tom Friedman again. You know that Gore didn't really take a bullet for his country, right? Not even metaphorically (or "literally" as Biden would put it).

But then, I remember your view of LBJ and that explains a lot.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #228 on: November 10, 2020, 03:01:21 PM »

Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?


It's what you said it is: "the passage of a resolution by a majority vote."  Nothing more.  "The will of the people" is simply a way of talking, a rhetorical flourish.  The phrase doesn't refer to anything real.  It's an exercise in linguistic opportunism.  Rousseau couldn't make the "general will" work, and neither has anyone else.

But suppose for a moment there is a "real thing" called "the will of the people."  Why should anyone believe that voting is what best represents "the will of the people"?  Why not think that this is most accurately reflected in the commercial behavior of a community?  Over the last generation or so, people have shopped more frequently, and in greater numbers, at WalMart than at neighborhood mom-and-pop stores.  So does WalMart represent "the will of the people"?  If not, why not?  Why doesn't commercial market behavior capture "the will of the people" more fairly than any sort of "voting" does?


"Will" is defined as "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action." A sub-meaning: "the thing that one desires or ordains." Voting is a way that a group makes decisions or to express the group's desire. Voting is the way groups often "ordain," that is, "order or decree something officially."


An issue could be that the definitions are about an individual's will. I'm talking about a group; treating it as a collective individual.


We do talk about people voting "with their feet" or "with their pocket books." Voting with voice, hands, cards, ballots, electronic devices are not the only way people vote.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #229 on: November 10, 2020, 03:02:14 PM »
A presidential election, Tom Pearson et al., is not about one thing. For some voters it may not even be about the president. The top of the ticket did poorly in places where a Republican Senator won election. We have all heard - even in this modest forum - of people who do not like Trump but voted because... yadda yadda yadda ... you know the reasons. And there are those who may not like the candidate at all but would rather gargle glass shards than vote for a D-D-D-Democrat.  >:(
And some may have voted for Biden not because they endorse everything he has said or even many things about the Democrats, but because they are angry, disgusted, fed up, annoyed, furious, embarrassed, worried and/or ready to hurl, toss their cookies, drive the porcelain bus, upchuck  - take your pick of the lists - because of Trump. I doubt we will be able to statistically sort out such things, but they are there.
The point now is for everyone to draw back, look ahead and help what is going to take us to the future.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #230 on: November 10, 2020, 03:24:12 PM »
Among the many things on Biden's 'to do' list for the first 100 days is to see that the Equality Act is passed into law. This act would add sexual identity and gender identity to the list of protected groups in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This has been opposed by conservatives, in part, due to ramifications on faith-based institutions.  As one source notes: "If it passes, religiously affiliated schools and other faith-based organizations could face lawsuits over policies on gay, lesbian or transgender students, customers or employees."
https://www.deseret.com/2019/3/13/20668346/would-the-equality-act-harm-religious-freedom-here-s-what-you-need-to-know#rep-david-cicilline-d-r-i-center-speaks-during-a-news-conference-to-introduce-the-equality-act-a-comprehensive-nondiscrimination-bill-for-lgbt-rights-at-the-capitol-on-wednesday-march-13-2019-in-washington

The university my youngest daughter currently attends, then, might face lawsuits and legal pressure to conform to standards contrary to its stated faith convictions. Likewise with the school and day care of our local Lutheran church to my west. 

I hope that if Biden feels compelled to push for this he at least listens to those in the faith community who feel strongly about sexual identity issues as moral issues of conscience.  I am not arguing here about its implementation in public institutions, although hiring practices by private businesses will come under attack, and that concerns me as well.  I am also concerned about the erasure of gender identity when it comes to sports and access to restrooms and locker rooms.  These concerns have been expressed elsewhere for some time. I hope that Biden listens to these concerns, or my second hope is that if he will not a thinner majority in the House and a Republican controlled Senate might slow it down and make others take these concerns seriously.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #231 on: November 10, 2020, 03:31:47 PM »
Jebutler, The Man from the attorney generals office that I cited is not anonymous. He appeared on television this morning, CNN I think, maybe MSNBC. You can look him up.
If you would read carefully you would see the issue is not “investigating voter fraud,” the issue is when that investigation is to be done.
The member of the AG staff who resigned rather than do Barr’s bidding on this matter is also known. His name is in the news. You can look him up.
But I sense you and I are heading for a black hole. You can look these things up. I’m not trying to change your mind.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

jebutler

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #232 on: November 10, 2020, 03:47:31 PM »
Jebutler, The Man from the attorney generals office that I cited is not anonymous. He appeared on television this morning, CNN I think, maybe MSNBC. You can look him up.
If you would read carefully you would see the issue is not “investigating voter fraud,” the issue is when that investigation is to be done.
The member of the AG staff who resigned rather than do Barr’s bidding on this matter is also known. His name is in the news. You can look him up.
But I sense you and I are heading for a black hole. You can look these things up. I’m not trying to change your mind.

Then if he is known, why didn't you use his name? You're the one who saw him. You're the one who gave his arguments. If you know who he is, then tell us.

It's shouldn't have to hunt down your sources. I didn't see him. I didn't watch him. I didn't cite him. You did.

And, lest I forget, everything these men said is their opinion.Like its your opinion that LBJ took responsibility for Vietnam and quit his reelection campaign. And they could be just as wrong as you are.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 03:58:51 PM by jebutler »
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

Richard Johnson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #233 on: November 10, 2020, 04:18:25 PM »
'James'...  "Government indoctrinators?"  Are you serious?  Come on, Man.


Teaching youth to think for themselves must be "government indoctrination." It might conflict with the indoctrination the parents have imposed on their children.

Government schools did not teach me to think for myself.  I learned that skill somewhat in college (in opposition to the professors, which was still something that was allowed back then), and mostly in law school.

I'm sorry for your experience. In my public high school, I had social studies teachers with a variety of political and philosophical positions. All of them stressed thinking for oneself, and all of them challenged us at many points, even when they agreed with us.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #234 on: November 10, 2020, 04:19:39 PM »
I, however, think there was credible material worthy of further investigation and hope that someone in the justice department is seeing that this is done.

I suspect that many news organizations did do further investigation, and found it to be a big nothing burger.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #235 on: November 10, 2020, 04:22:04 PM »
'James'...  "Government indoctrinators?"  Are you serious?  Come on, Man.


Teaching youth to think for themselves must be "government indoctrination." It might conflict with the indoctrination the parents have imposed on their children.

Government schools did not teach me to think for myself.  I learned that skill somewhat in college (in opposition to the professors, which was still something that was allowed back then), and mostly in law school.

I'm sorry for your experience. In my public high school, I had social studies teachers with a variety of political and philosophical positions. All of them stressed thinking for oneself, and all of them challenged us at many points, even when they agreed with us.

I don't want to presume your age, but it could be generational.  I'm 50, and by the time I was in high school, it was mostly teaching to the test.

I had great teachers.  But they did not excel in teaching independent thinking.  They taught lists for the most part. 
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Richard Johnson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #236 on: November 10, 2020, 04:28:03 PM »

1. Al Gore didn't concede until more than 30 days after what used to be known as "Election Day".

5.  What is the history of transition cooperation?  Trump didn't get much of it in 2016-17 from the outgoing Administration, and it showed. 

Well, actually, he did concede almost immediately, then retracted his concession. But the circumstance was quite difficult. It was a matter of a single state, an extremely small margin, and the issue wasn't so much alleged fraud but accurate and consistent counting of ballots. Remember "hanging chads"?

What is your evidence for saying that Trump "didn't get much" cooperation? This is a serious question. My recollection is that on the Trump side, things were chaotic; Chris Christie was his director of transition and Trump fired him a couple of days in. Far as I know, Obama made the appropriate office space and funding available. But it's pretty hard to cooperate with utter chaos.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #237 on: November 10, 2020, 04:38:20 PM »
And since the beginning, everyone with some savvy ha said there is no comparison between the Gore-Bush situation and this one.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #238 on: November 10, 2020, 04:42:14 PM »
My wife and I won a relatively small jackpot.

We discussed what we were going to do with our winnings. My wife suggested we save it. I suggested that we buy a new pickup truck. We decided to vote on it. We did and remained deadlocked, 1-1, until a little past midnight when 139,000 votes came in for the pickup.

My wife is suspicious...
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Robert Johnson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #239 on: November 10, 2020, 05:15:06 PM »
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others?

There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.