Author Topic: Now that the 2020 Election is over....  (Read 55423 times)

mj4

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #180 on: November 09, 2020, 07:48:32 PM »
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.

Tell me exactly where Evangelicals have asked the government for support, and I will answer your question. Be specific.

Okay. I’ll answer your question even though you haven’t bothered to answer mine. First, though, let me be clear about what I meant when I wrote that Norman Teigen’s characterization of Evangelicals was too general and prejudiced to serve any meaningful purpose. Think of how many Lutheran groups there are today. A lot, right? Would you ever be able to make a sweeping claim about our political views or motives as sweeping as Mr. Teigen has made regarding Evangelicals? I don’t think so. And Evangelicals are many times more diverse than Lutherans in America. Whatever Mr. Teigren’s accomplishments as an historian, they are not reflected in his claims regarding Evangelicals.

About the Franklin quote, Mr. Teigen correctly put it in the context of the religious tests that Massachusetts tried to impose on candidates for the House of Representatives during Franklin’s lifetime. He wasn’t referring to financial support for churches or their schools as far as I can tell. My guess, and I’d rather he clarify this himself, is that Mr. Teigen was making a connection between his claim that Evangelicals are ”power-hungry” and the attempt of Massachusetts to guarantee that only Christians served in the legislature.

But if you want to extrapolate the Franklin quote to apply to the debate about private school access to federal funds, then I can extrapolate too. Our ELCA advocates for all sorts of government actions and policies, much of it telling the government where we want it to spend taxpayer’s money. So, are ELCA Lutherans “power-hungry”? Are we refusing to confine ourselves to the work of the Lord? I don’t think so any more or less than the Evangelicals.

https://support.elca.org/site/SPageNavigator/elca_action_center.html?NONCE_TOKEN=23BB48C1CE79EF02C5B7920B7041F7D6&_ga=2.231511455.1676207686.1604950913-1852050956.1600195088
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 07:51:42 PM by mj4 »

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #181 on: November 09, 2020, 08:03:30 PM »
Thank you, mj4, your sensible comment does a little bit to help me find some hope for this forum. (Although I wish I knew who you really are. At least you are not a  bile-and-oddity-spewing troll like a couple of other anonymous people here.)
We could have a discussion about the difference between ELCA involvement with government and what the evangelicals have done in recent years; but I haven't the heart or energy for it right now.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

DeHall1

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #182 on: November 09, 2020, 08:50:15 PM »
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.
And those who want to make something of an error in typing are just strange.

Were the PPP loans government support?  They were, right?  Through the SBA?

The ELCA Federal Credit Union is now accepting PPP Loan Forgiveness Applications for congregations and ministries that applied for these PPP loans through the ELCA Federal Credit Union.   

Seems to me that they wouldn’t need to accept these loan forgiveness applications if ELCA congregations and ministries didn’t ask for them....

James J Eivan

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #183 on: November 09, 2020, 09:35:26 PM »
Meanwhile, sworn affidavits of postal irregularities in Pennsylvania ... Al Gore did not concede the 2000 election until sometime in December ... the union survived then .. we will survive now.

To doubt that there will be a peaceful transition on January 20 is simply hate speech.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #184 on: November 09, 2020, 09:50:59 PM »
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others? It might be nigh on impossible to keep the voter rolls perfectly clean, but it should be possible to make sure nobody thinks it worthwhile to mail in a ballot that wasn't theirs or to vote in the name of someone else. I'm tired of the Cook County "vote early, vote often" attitude that makes a joke out of voter fraud being a little too true for humor. And it is. In sports some people say, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'," which is bad enough. But that is just sports. I want every person who knowingly cast an illegal ballot to be prosecuted. I think Trump, even if he is ultimately defeated, is one of the few politicians who would also think such prosecutions worthwhile, even they number only in the dozens.

Pastor Ken Kimball

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #185 on: November 09, 2020, 10:18:45 PM »
Pastor Austin,
I repeat myself "Try harder" and ignore them.  Scroll past them.  Don't read what they wrote.  And for heaven's sake, stop naming them.  You're giving them credit and pleasure they don't deserve.  There are enough solid and well reasoned posters who write substantial stuff that makes this forum worth reading.  Just read them.  Engage with them.  You're letting the trolls get to you.  Though I often disagree with what you write--and you're not always pleasant in your disagreement (and for that matter, neither am I), I still find substance in what you share, when you're not feeding the trolls or sharing your Trump-Derangement-Syndrome screeds.   

pearson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #186 on: November 09, 2020, 10:41:42 PM »

If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that..


Pr. Engebretson has already made a similar point elsewhere, but:

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of a circular argument.  What does it mean to be "the will of the people"?  Why, that's defined as "the winner of the popular vote."  And how shall we define the significance of "the winner of the popular vote"?  Well, that's defined as "the will of the people."  Why would anyone ever take such foolishness seriously?

"The will of the people" is a populist myth.

Tom Pearson

Julio

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #187 on: November 10, 2020, 12:44:25 AM »
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others? It might be nigh on impossible to keep the voter rolls perfectly clean, but it should be possible to make sure nobody thinks it worthwhile to mail in a ballot that wasn't theirs or to vote in the name of someone else. I'm tired of the Cook County "vote early, vote often" attitude that makes a joke out of voter fraud being a little too true for humor. And it is. In sports some people say, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'," which is bad enough. But that is just sports. I want every person who knowingly cast an illegal ballot to be prosecuted. I think Trump, even if he is ultimately defeated, is one of the few politicians who would also think such prosecutions worthwhile, even they number only in the dozens.
The bitter truth is that even a single fraudulently cast vote has the potential to disenfranchise any one of us ... a rather sobering thought regardless of which political persuasion one is.

These court challenges are good for the union ... the union is better from the 2000 challenges .... it will also emerge better and stronger from these challenges.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #188 on: November 10, 2020, 01:16:14 AM »

If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that..


Pr. Engebretson has already made a similar point elsewhere, but:

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of a circular argument.  What does it mean to be "the will of the people"?  Why, that's defined as "the winner of the popular vote."  And how shall we define the significance of "the winner of the popular vote"?  Well, that's defined as "the will of the people."  Why would anyone ever take such foolishness seriously?

"The will of the people" is a populist myth.


Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #189 on: November 10, 2020, 06:56:49 AM »

If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that..


Pr. Engebretson has already made a similar point elsewhere, but:

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of a circular argument.  What does it mean to be "the will of the people"?  Why, that's defined as "the winner of the popular vote."  And how shall we define the significance of "the winner of the popular vote"?  Well, that's defined as "the will of the people."  Why would anyone ever take such foolishness seriously?

"The will of the people" is a populist myth.


Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?

The will of the people is expressed in our Comstitution as well. And if they don’t like its expression there, they can try to change it.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #190 on: November 10, 2020, 06:59:53 AM »
Attorney General Barr enters the unfounded allegations of fraud
in a way breaking Justice Department policies

From The New York Times today, my emphasis added
WASHINGTON — Attorney General William P. Barr, wading into President Trump’s unfounded accusations of widespread election irregularities, told federal prosecutors on Monday that they were allowed to investigate “specific allegations” of voter fraud before the results of the presidential race are certified.
   Mr. Barr’s authorization prompted the Justice Department official who oversees investigations of voter fraud, Richard Pilger, to step down from the post within hours, according to an email Mr. Pilger sent to colleagues that was obtained by The New York Times.
   Mr. Barr said he had authorized “specific instances” of investigative steps in some cases. He made clear in a carefully worded memo that prosecutors had the authority to investigate, but he warned that “specious, speculative, fanciful or far-fetched claims should not be a basis for initiating federal inquiries.”
   Mr. Barr’s directive ignored the Justice Department’s longstanding policies intended to keep law enforcement from affecting the outcome of an election. And it followed a move weeks before the election in which the department lifted a prohibition on voter fraud investigations before an election.
   “Given that voting in our current elections has now concluded, I authorize you to pursue substantial allegations of voting and vote tabulation irregularities prior to the certification of elections in your jurisdictions,” Mr. Barr wrote.
   A Justice Department official said that Mr. Barr had authorized scrutiny of allegations about ineligible voters in Nevada and backdated mail-in ballots in Pennsylvania. Republicans have circulated both claims in recent days without any evidence emerging to back them.
Mr. Barr did not write the memo at the direction of Mr. Trump, the White House or any Republican lawmakers, the official said.
   Mr. Barr has privately told department officials in the days since the election that any disputes should be resolved in court by the campaigns themselves, according to three people briefed on the conversations. He has said that he did not see massive fraud, and that most of the allegations of voter fraud were related to individual instances that did not point to a larger systemic problem, the people said.
   But critics of Mr. Barr immediately condemned the memo as a political act that undermined the Justice Department’s typical independence from the White House.
   “It would be problematic enough if Barr were reversing longstanding Justice Department guidance because of significant, substantiated claims of misconduct — that could presumably be handled at the local and state level,” said Stephen I. Vladeck, a professor at the University of Texas School of Law.
   “But to do so when there is no such evidence — and when the president’s clear strategy is to delegitimize the results of a proper election — is one of the more problematic acts of any attorney general in my lifetime,” Mr. Vladeck added.
   Mr. Pilger, a career prosecutor in the department’s Public Integrity Section who oversaw voting-fraud-related investigations, told colleagues he would move to a nonsupervisory role working on corruption prosecutions.
   “Having familiarized myself with the new policy and its ramifications,” he wrote, “I must regretfully resign from my role as director of the Election Crimes Branch.” A Justice Department spokeswoman did not immediately respond to a request for comment about Mr. Pilger’s message.


The complete story is at
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/barr-elections.html
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #191 on: November 10, 2020, 09:24:51 AM »
Big tech, those giants of the relatively new and emerging industries that are heavily invested in the internet, were known to have supported the Biden in a big way.  They came under a bit of fire during the campaign, especially on issues of how much information should be limited (although media often uses the word "censor," even though it is sometimes pointed out here that is more properly used of government). A notorious case involved the NY Post story on Biden.  There has been a push from some quarters to clamp down on so-called hate groups and misinformation.  But who defines that can be tricky.  I'm sure we all know at least one person who ended up in "Facebook jail" because they ran afoul of the algorithms on that platform designed to control information. From some perspectives it often feels rather arbitrary.  In other cases biased. I've dodged that since I am relatively apolitical on FB.

Trump utilized Twitter heavily during his tenure and I'm sure all campaigns relied greatly on social media this time around, especially during the pandemic when in-person approaches were limited. But in the latter part of his presidency Twitter started attaching warnings to his tweets.  It has appeared that Big Tech has been more supportive of liberal endeavors than that of conservative ones.  The heads of these companies, I'm sure most will agree, are not icons of the right.

It will be interesting, going forward, to see how the Biden administration deals with the internet and the various social media platforms that have become major vehicles for information and news.  Biden wants to build broadband infrastructure for communities that currently lack it, which I applaud, since I live in a very rural area. 

Under the Trump administration an antitrust lawsuit was launched against Google. I would think that antitrust efforts might appeal to both sides, but I'll be curious to see if he pushes hard against some of the folks who gave him so much political support leading up to the White House. 

Another area that might bring about some bipartisan cooperation, although for different reasons, is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. This law provides tech companies immunity from lawsuits over what people post to their sites. Yet it also leaves the choice to take down or flag content at the sole discretion of the companies. I'll be interested to see if Biden takes a lead here, or backs away.

I hope that Biden can show bipartisan interest in issues concerning Big Tech, especially the critical area of the free flow of information. Having these companies serve as a 'censors' deciding what is truth and what is fiction, removes from the reader/consumer the right and responsibility to do the hard work of their own investigation. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #192 on: November 10, 2020, 09:58:08 AM »
I am reluctant to favor restrictions on social media, under the freedom of speech umbrella,  on the other hand, there are hate groups, there is disinformation and creeps who lie and lie and others who spread the lies. Is this a “public danger”? Perhaps it is, and perhaps there should be some way to put some restrictions on it.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

James J Eivan

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #193 on: November 10, 2020, 10:19:44 AM »
Big tech, those giants of the relatively new and emerging industries that are heavily invested in the internet, were known to have supported the Biden in a big way.  They came under a bit of fire during the campaign, especially on issues of how much information should be limited (although media often uses the word "censor," even though it is sometimes pointed out here that is more properly used of government). A notorious case involved the NY Post story on Biden.  There has been a push from some quarters to clamp down on so-called hate groups and misinformation.  But who defines that can be tricky.  I'm sure we all know at least one person who ended up in "Facebook jail" because they ran afoul of the algorithms on that platform designed to control information. From some perspectives it often feels rather arbitrary.  In other cases biased. I've dodged that since I am relatively apolitical on FB. <emphasis added>
This apparent non dictionary restriction was mentioned here.

Check your dictionary definitions ... none restrict censorship to governmental entities ... in fact Wikipedia specifically extends censorship beyond the government ...
Quote
Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient." Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies.


How and why is it so important to restrict the term sensor to government only? Censorship is alive and well across society… Especially in social media as you have so well demonstrated?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 10:25:06 AM by James »

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #194 on: November 10, 2020, 10:38:18 AM »
Today’s polls show that young people, aged 18 to 29, voted for Biden by a count of 2 to 1, that is, 66% of them voted for Biden and 33% voted for Trump. This bodes well for the future, especially At a time when his son has suggested he might want to run again.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.