Author Topic: Now that the 2020 Election is over....  (Read 55996 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #165 on: November 09, 2020, 04:47:20 PM »
If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that.

No, the "popular vote," as the name implies, pertains only to a group.


Yes, it's the group who cast a ballot in the election.


Quote
In this presidential election over 47% voted against the winner. Does that imply that they are not "the people" because they happen to fall short of a simple majority? Do they have essentially no voice simply because their candidate did not win?


In most elections, the one who receives a majority of the votes wins. That's also true when voting on bills, resolutions, motions, etc. The majority vote expresses the wish of the people. The minority agrees to the parliamentary process and to live by the decision. Roberts Rules are designed to make sure that the minority have had a voice and had an equal opportunity to be the majority. The minority have a voice, but when there is a vote, the majority win.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #166 on: November 09, 2020, 04:48:50 PM »

As I noted in a previous post, 47.7% of the vote counted thus far went for Trump.  . .  Their views count, too. 

I entirely agree. It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #167 on: November 09, 2020, 05:02:41 PM »
Regarding Biden and mending fences, as I noted above I am personally very optimistic about that.

One thing he could do immediately, without even having to issue a mea culpa, is acknowledge his role in skewing the Court leftward by his treatment of judicial nominees over the years, and pledge not to try to pack or reform the Court.

He's almost certainly won the election.  He won't have to sit for re-election.  He has literally nothing at all to lose by doing this, and it would go a long way toward healing the ever-escalating partisanship around Supreme Court appointments.

Will he?  I can only hope.  I'm hopeful, but not optimistic.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #168 on: November 09, 2020, 05:13:30 PM »
Richard writes:
It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. Trump's vilification of Clinton, spoken with force each time he mentioned her, continued throughout his administration. So did his hatred of President Obama, whom he viciously trashed and lied about time after time for four years. Nice bridge-building, that.
   The President's refusal to concede, his threat of rallies on his behalf, his baseless charges of massive voter fraud, and his bizarre actions - playing golf on the critical day, never mentioning the virus, beginning to fire people, odd tweets, - are the sick, desperate actions of a sick desperate man. Bluster and bullying, and then he will have to slink away, never admitting to the reality of what he has done.
   Republican leaders, somehow drained of what little courage they have, do nothing, most likely because they know that nothing will change the results and/or because they still fear his wrath, so they are willing to look like fools for the sake of the Party, and apparently it will still be His party even after His term is over.
  So the suck-ups who need the Party slurp away; those not facing re-election or having some integrity - like Romney, Bush the Younger - congratulate Biden and Harris.
   Meanwhile, the President-Elect is preparing to deal with the virus and be ready on Day One to have a program in place. Yes, it will include "executive orders," that is always the case. And he is ignoring Trump's rants and bloviations. I also suspect that when he is inaugurated, he will also be able to ignore McConnell's cowardly sycophancy and laughable claims, so that they can work together for the future.
   This is both wise and necessary, for despite the reality of who McConnell is, the new president will have to work with him.
   May God lead us, as peaceably as possible, to Jan. 20 and beyond.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 05:32:53 PM by Charles Austin »
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Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #169 on: November 09, 2020, 05:20:08 PM »
P.S.
And then there is the money factor. These legal challenges and everything attached to them must be financed by the Republican Party. The party and its campaign funds are already drained. A recent fund-raising letter says that half of all the money raised now will go to pay campaign expenses already incurred.
Are the Republicans willing to virtually bankrupt themselves in what will almost surely be a failed attempt, just because Their Guy is still acting like a tantrum-throwing four-year-old?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #170 on: November 09, 2020, 05:56:56 PM »

As I noted in a previous post, 47.7% of the vote counted thus far went for Trump.  . .  Their views count, too. 

I entirely agree. It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.

That is unfortunate. I'm sure the Republicans, including the president, could have set a better stage for future work together.  But now that Trump is defeated the stage is hopefully reset for future cooperation. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #171 on: November 09, 2020, 05:59:31 PM »
Richard writes:
It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. Trump's vilification of Clinton, spoken with force each time he mentioned her, continued throughout his administration. So did his hatred of President Obama, whom he viciously trashed and lied about time after time for four years. Nice bridge-building, that.
   The President's refusal to concede, his threat of rallies on his behalf, his baseless charges of massive voter fraud, and his bizarre actions - playing golf on the critical day, never mentioning the virus, beginning to fire people, odd tweets, - are the sick, desperate actions of a sick desperate man. Bluster and bullying, and then he will have to slink away, never admitting to the reality of what he has done.
   Republican leaders, somehow drained of what little courage they have, do nothing, most likely because they know that nothing will change the results and/or because they still fear his wrath, so they are willing to look like fools for the sake of the Party, and apparently it will still be His party even after His term is over.
  So the suck-ups who need the Party slurp away; those not facing re-election or having some integrity - like Romney, Bush the Younger - congratulate Biden and Harris.
   Meanwhile, the President-Elect is preparing to deal with the virus and be ready on Day One to have a program in place. Yes, it will include "executive orders," that is always the case. And he is ignoring Trump's rants and bloviations. I also suspect that when he is inaugurated, he will also be able to ignore McConnell's cowardly sycophancy and laughable claims, so that they can work together for the future.
   This is both wise and necessary, for despite the reality of who McConnell is, the new president will have to work with him.
   May God lead us, as peaceably as possible, to Jan. 20 and beyond.
You have consistently, without fail, spoken far more harshly of Trump than Trump has of Obama. Since you conclude merely from reading what Trump says that he hates Obama, it is time to look in the mirror, honestly, and admit what is obvious to everyone. You truly, deeply, hate President Trump. That is, your thoughts of him and obsession with him far exceeds anything he might feel toward Obama. Either that or you are out of line, again, in concluding that Trump hates Clinton and Obama.

James S. Rustad

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #172 on: November 09, 2020, 06:00:05 PM »
James S. Rustad writes:
Biden may want to be a unity president, but he will not be able to be one if his supporters keep taking shots at the other side (even if they use your method of taking the shot without taking the shot).  Please rise above this Charles.

I comment:
OK. Will try.
<deleted sentences about what the other side should do>
But I will try.

Richard writes:
It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. Trump's vilification of Clinton, spoken with force each time he mentioned her, continued throughout his administration. So did his hatred of President Obama, whom he viciously trashed and lied about time after time for four years. Nice bridge-building, that.
   The President's refusal to concede, his threat of rallies on his behalf, his baseless charges of massive voter fraud, and his bizarre actions - playing golf on the critical day, never mentioning the virus, beginning to fire people, odd tweets, - are the sick, desperate actions of a sick desperate man. Bluster and bullying, and then he will have to slink away, never admitting to the reality of what he has done.
   Republican leaders, somehow drained of what little courage they have, do nothing, most likely because they know that nothing will change the results and/or because they still fear his wrath, so they are willing to look like fools for the sake of the Party, and apparently it will still be His party even after His term is over.
  So the suck-ups who need the Party slurp away; those not facing re-election or having some integrity - like Romney, Bush the Younger - congratulate Biden and Harris.
   Meanwhile, the President-Elect is preparing to deal with the virus and be ready on Day One to have a program in place. Yes, it will include "executive orders," that is always the case. And he is ignoring Trump's rants and bloviations. I also suspect that when he is inaugurated, he will also be able to ignore McConnell's cowardly sycophancy and laughable claims, so that they can work together for the future.
   This is both wise and necessary, for despite the reality of who McConnell is, the new president will have to work with him.
   May God lead us, as peaceably as possible, to Jan. 20 and beyond.

Well, that promise didn't hold up long.  If this is an example of what we can expect from Biden's supporters, I fear it will make be impossible for him to bring unity.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #173 on: November 09, 2020, 06:03:56 PM »
Richard writes:
It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. Trump's vilification of Clinton, spoken with force each time he mentioned her, continued throughout his administration. So did his hatred of President Obama, whom he viciously trashed and lied about time after time for four years. Nice bridge-building, that.
   The President's refusal to concede, his threat of rallies on his behalf, his baseless charges of massive voter fraud, and his bizarre actions - playing golf on the critical day, never mentioning the virus, beginning to fire people, odd tweets, - are the sick, desperate actions of a sick desperate man. Bluster and bullying, and then he will have to slink away, never admitting to the reality of what he has done.
   Republican leaders, somehow drained of what little courage they have, do nothing, most likely because they know that nothing will change the results and/or because they still fear his wrath, so they are willing to look like fools for the sake of the Party, and apparently it will still be His party even after His term is over.
  So the suck-ups who need the Party slurp away; those not facing re-election or having some integrity - like Romney, Bush the Younger - congratulate Biden and Harris.
   Meanwhile, the President-Elect is preparing to deal with the virus and be ready on Day One to have a program in place. Yes, it will include "executive orders," that is always the case. And he is ignoring Trump's rants and bloviations. I also suspect that when he is inaugurated, he will also be able to ignore McConnell's cowardly sycophancy and laughable claims, so that they can work together for the future.
   This is both wise and necessary, for despite the reality of who McConnell is, the new president will have to work with him.
   May God lead us, as peaceably as possible, to Jan. 20 and beyond.

I know you have chastised some for revisiting the past and re-fighting old wars.  I sense you are doing more of the same.  In the spirit of unity and healing it would be nice to move beyond name-calling. Trump, for all intents and purposes, has lost, despite the slew of lawsuits that are being processed.  His era is drawing quickly to a close.  I know I'm one that is, in a way, already holding Biden's 'feet to the flames' about his promise to seek unity and healing. But I want to make sure that he gives clear intent from the outset.  Otherwise the stage is clear set for some pretty bitter partisan battles, especially with the seats in both houses so evenly divided. He has taken the lead in this, at least in promise.  I just want to make sure he follows through.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #174 on: November 09, 2020, 06:13:54 PM »
Peter, again, I do not hate the president; I despise him. And the kind side of me actually pities him. He’s a sad desperate man. I’ll bet psychiatrist are  having a whale of a time placing him on various places on their scales of metal imbalance.

Pastor Engebretson writes:
Trump, for all intents and purposes, has lost, despite the slew of lawsuits that are being processed.
I comment:
And if the Trump supporters and defenders in this modest forum would admit that, I will try never to mention his name again. But so long as there are these “it ain’t over” partisans, He, unfortunately, is still in play. And the “it-ain’t-over” folks stand in the way of moving ahead.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #175 on: November 09, 2020, 06:18:25 PM »
Peter, again, I do not hate the president; I despise him. And the kind side of me actually pities him. He’s a sad desperate man. I’ll bet psychiatrist are  having a whale of a time placing him on various places on their scales of metal imbalance.

Pastor Engebretson writes:
Trump, for all intents and purposes, has lost, despite the slew of lawsuits that are being processed.
I comment:
And if the Trump supporters and defenders in this modest forum would admit that, I will try never to mention his name again. But so long as there are these “it ain’t over” partisans, He, unfortunately, is still in play. And the “it-ain’t-over” folks stand in the way of moving ahead.
If it is over, what is to be gained by insisting on that point to those who don’t think it over? It seems like the perfect opportunity to ignore them entirely. The alternative is get into an argument that will be even more pointless than it is nasty and tedious.

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #176 on: November 09, 2020, 06:27:32 PM »
What is pointless and tedious are the insulting words thrown at those of us who are progressives, personal attacks by anonymous posters and others here. If I said similar things about certain people here...
But carry on. Again I lament what has been done to this forum. 
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James S. Rustad

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #177 on: November 09, 2020, 06:35:06 PM »
What is pointless and tedious are the insulting words thrown at those of us who are progressives, personal attacks by anonymous posters and others here. If I said similar things about certain people here...
But carry on. Again I lament what has been done to this forum.

And your ongoing attacks on Trump supporters don't count?  Charles, please stop.  Remember that you said "I will."

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #178 on: November 09, 2020, 06:58:35 PM »
You get that pledge from a couple of anonymous posters here, James S. Rustad, just try. And I am not personally attacking individual Trump supporters here. “James” has had an insulting tag line here for days. I understand he has been warned but it’s still there. “Julio,” (another name for “James”?) spends half of his posts blasting me and Brian and not dealing with the topic.
Going away for a little while now.
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D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #179 on: November 09, 2020, 06:59:04 PM »
Trump's rhetoric, unfortunately, had a tendency to cause national discussions to turn caustic and combative.  It tended to bring out less than the best in others, even the current president-elect.  In the first debate he called the sitting president a "clown."  Now I'm not deliberately singling him out and excusing Trump, but it points out how easy it is for conversations to degenerate to levels they should not be. I could not imagine, even in a heated discussion, resorting to calling a sitting president a "clown."  But that is where our discourse has gone.

I know some are still fighting the Trump cause. Trump is still fighting it. I've accepted the fact that regardless of future legal battles Biden will remain the president-elect.  So I'm committed to seeing how that will now play out. I am trying hard not to simply attack Biden because he stands for some policies and ideologies to which I am opposed.  I realize we are not going to get everyone on the same page.  Never have.  But I'd like to see if it's possible for some sense of respectable discourse minus character attacks.
Pastor Don Engebretson
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