Author Topic: Now that the 2020 Election is over....  (Read 55901 times)

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #150 on: November 09, 2020, 01:55:28 PM »
"Another of [Biden's] welcome campaign messages is one that he repeated Friday: 'We may be opponents, but we are not enemies. We are Americans.'

Russ Saltzman, who had been involved in politics in his younger days said something like that in a newspaper interview some 35 years ago. Opponents do not have to become enemies. Lawyers oppose each other in the courtroom, without becoming enemies. Athletes oppose each other on the playing field without becoming enemies. (They could be teammates next season.)

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It’s absolutely the right tone, but some of his key supporters sound more interested in humiliation and revenge than reconciliation.

And some of Trump's supports engaged in illegal acts (and some were found guilty and imprisoned). That doesn't mean that President Trump agreed with their rhetoric or actions.

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His spokesman, Andrew Bates, also said Friday in a statement about Trump that “the United States government is perfectly capable of escorting trespassers out of the White House.”

Isn't that a true statement? If (former) President Trump has not moved out of the White House by January 20, he will be a trespasser.
 
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As for Ocasio-Cortez, she is supporting the reprehensible idea of having her side keep lists of Trump supporters, writing on Twitter: 'Is anyone archiving these Trump sycophants for when they try to downplay or deny their complicity in the future?'


I have no idea what that means. I don't use Twitter. Most of the political posts I read on Facebook I ignore. Most, on both sides, are inaccurate.

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A group of Never Trumpers echoed the banana-republic notion, saying they aimed to punish the president’s supporters. Jennifer Rubin, the odious Washington Post columnist, wrote that Trump supporters 'should never serve in office, join a corporate board, find a faculty position or be accepted into ‘polite’ society. We have a list.'

The best response Biden could give is to say that he, too, is keeping a list — of those who continue to stir hatred and division and that he denounces them, regardless of how they voted."

What makes you think he isn't keeping a list?

Making it more personal: are there people in your congregation who disagree with you? (There always were in congregations I served.) What do you do to balance your own convictions with trying to maintain peace within the congregation? I know that when writing sermons, I constantly had my opponents on some issues in mind. The pulpit should not be a place to espouse my partisan political views, but to proclaim the gospel - the good news from God through Jesus for all people. It had to be Law/Gospel, conviction of sins and forgiveness of sins, for all the hearers: both those who agree and disagree with me about different issues.

Note: I had a number of council members who had also served under previous clergy, comment about how peaceful our meetings were. We lost one elderly couple over our 2009 vote. They transferred to an LCMS congregation. I remained friends with them. She was active in our quilting group - and went and had snacks with them every week. I was invited to her 90th birthday party.

I didn't know Michael Goodwin had a congregation.
Pr. Don Kirchner

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #151 on: November 09, 2020, 01:59:22 PM »
P. S. Biden has said, about a million times, that he would pay attention to those who did not vote for him, That he would be a president for all Americans. Do we believe him? If so, why keep bringing it up?
Actions speak louder than words. We all know what he said and says. Now we will see how he acts.


We will also see how the Republicans in congress act. One side cannot create unity.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #152 on: November 09, 2020, 02:08:50 PM »
I didn't know Michael Goodwin had a congregation.


You do. How do you deal with members who have different political convictions than you do? (I'm assuming that you have members that don't agree with you about every issue.) What actions do you take to try and maintain peace among the differing members of the congregation? What differences, if any, might there be between a Christian pastor seeking peace within a congregation and the congregation council and a Christian president seeking peace in our nation and the legislative branch?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 02:11:23 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

mj4

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #153 on: November 09, 2020, 02:16:52 PM »
Evangelicals aren't giving up even though the election is over and. Joe Biden is the Vice-President Elect.  Evangelicals are politically power hungry and do not confine themselves to doing the work of the Lord,  This is my letter to NY Times which has been approved for distribution.   

"Your comment has been approved!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with The New York Times community.

Norman Teigen | Hopkins MN
In 1780 Benjamin Franklin wrote a letter to Richard Price on the subject of religious tests: "When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are obliged to call for the help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." see the Library of America collection."

Your characterization of Evangelicals is too general and prejudiced to serve any meaningful purpose.

Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #154 on: November 09, 2020, 02:18:13 PM »
In my first congregation, one of our first disputes was over what we would name the the church. There were a number of possible name suggested. Personally, I suggest Augustana as a name since it was 1980, the 450th anniversary of the Augsburg Confession. I was not at all surprised that it was quickly eliminated. I had hoped that if I had a name rejected and the congregation saw that I accepted it being rejected that it would encourage others who had their suggestions rejected would accept that graciously. No way to tell if it helped, but the name was settled upon without a great deal of hard feelings.
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Coach-Rev

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #155 on: November 09, 2020, 02:40:04 PM »
Remember, Trump did not receive a majority of the popular vote. Bided did. You seem to assume that a majority of people approved of what Trump did. I don't think that's true. Rather, his actions (supported by a minority,) caused some of the division were are experiencing.

Brian, you know as well as I that the Democratic candidate has won the popular vote in the past 5 elections, and it can all be traced to one of several counties in the US.  Eliminate LA for example and you eliminate the popular vote win. 

Which of course is precisely the point of the Electoral College.  But since I'm doubtless banging my head against a wall here...
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln

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peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #156 on: November 09, 2020, 02:46:12 PM »
An interesting illustration of why the electoral college is not a bad thing. A ballot measure in Colorado that is currently ahead by less than 1% and could well pass 50.1/49.9 calls for the introduction of gray wolves to Western Colorado. The problem? Most of the counties in Western Colorado voted heavily against the measure. People who live in Denver and environs, on the other hand, who will never deal with a wolf on the other side of the Rockies unless on vacation, love the idea and voted for it. And far more people live in the cities. If they had he equivalent of an electoral college, the population center, Denver, could not impose its will on the rural Western areas so easily. Nothing is easier than voting to put wolves where other people live. At a national level, the huge urban centers could vote overwhelmingly to make the Great Plains into a giant buffalo preserve. But the Great Plains states, where said buffalo would actually roam, would have a much better chance of thwarting that plan in the senate.     

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #157 on: November 09, 2020, 03:18:28 PM »
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.
And those who want to make something of an error in typing are just strange.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 03:23:01 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #158 on: November 09, 2020, 03:18:46 PM »
Remember, Trump did not receive a majority of the popular vote. Bided did. You seem to assume that a majority of people approved of what Trump did. I don't think that's true. Rather, his actions (supported by a minority,) caused some of the division were are experiencing.

Brian, you know as well as I that the Democratic candidate has won the popular vote in the past 5 elections, and it can all be traced to one of several counties in the US.  Eliminate LA for example and you eliminate the popular vote win. 

Which of course is precisely the point of the Electoral College.  But since I'm doubtless banging my head against a wall here...


I certainly know the difference. I believe that the popular vote better represents the wishes of the population, even if it is skewed towards large cities. In five cases, a president was elected by the electoral college without the popular vote. I think that such a president needs to keep in mind that he did not have a large support of the population.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

mj4

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #159 on: November 09, 2020, 03:24:51 PM »
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.

Tell me exactly where Evangelicals have asked the government for support, and I will answer your question. Be specific.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #160 on: November 09, 2020, 03:30:10 PM »
An interesting illustration of why the electoral college is not a bad thing. A ballot measure in Colorado that is currently ahead by less than 1% and could well pass 50.1/49.9 calls for the introduction of gray wolves to Western Colorado. The problem? Most of the counties in Western Colorado voted heavily against the measure. People who live in Denver and environs, on the other hand, who will never deal with a wolf on the other side of the Rockies unless on vacation, love the idea and voted for it. And far more people live in the cities. If they had he equivalent of an electoral college, the population center, Denver, could not impose its will on the rural Western areas so easily. Nothing is easier than voting to put wolves where other people live. At a national level, the huge urban centers could vote overwhelmingly to make the Great Plains into a giant buffalo preserve. But the Great Plains states, where said buffalo would actually roam, would have a much better chance of thwarting that plan in the senate.   


If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that. A majority want gray wolves in the Rocky Mountains. If one asks, "Is this a good idea?" those who live and work in the environs for the gray wolves will have a better informed view of what the decision entails - if it is good or not. However, one may also have to discern how biased they may be if they are seeking to protect their own live stock more than understanding the whole ecosystem. The trained scientist who study such things, will also have an informed opinion about the situation, even if it doesn't affect their personal lives.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #161 on: November 09, 2020, 03:36:48 PM »
I didn't know Michael Goodwin had a congregation.

You do.

So? [Let's see, how would Brian respond? Oh yeah...]  I didn't write the above. Michael Goodwin did, and I didn't say whether I agree or disagree with it. I do not feel obligated, therefore, to respond to your irrelevant questions.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 03:39:12 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #162 on: November 09, 2020, 03:49:57 PM »
I didn't know Michael Goodwin had a congregation.

You do.

So? [Let's see, how would Brian respond? Oh yeah...]  I didn't write the above. Michael Goodwin did, and I didn't say whether I agree or disagree with it. I do not feel obligated, therefore, to respond to your irrelevant questions.


Irrelevant question? How can you say that asking about strategies to promote peace and unity among people with different convictions is irrelevant? We pastors, face that all the time in our congregations and in our council meetings. Why wouldn't our experiences also relate to what a president should do to promote harmony in the nation and congress?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #163 on: November 09, 2020, 03:51:21 PM »
Friend posted this on Facebook. It's an appropriate analogy. No one should want the president (whoever s/he is) to fail.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #164 on: November 09, 2020, 03:52:40 PM »
If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that.

No, the "popular vote," as the name implies, pertains only to a group. In this presidential election over 47% voted against the winner.  Does that imply that they are not "the people" because they happen to fall short of a simple majority? Do they have essentially no voice simply because their candidate did not win?
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