Author Topic: Now that the 2020 Election is over....  (Read 59063 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2020, 01:27:59 PM »
It's clear from this year's election that a few things really need to be changed when it comes to Election Day. A few suggestions below, suggestions which are fair for all candidates, and might help boost third parties:
  • Once counting begins, counting continues. In fact, all ballots to be counted in any counting location should be present before the counting begins; the doors are locked, and no one in or out after.
  • Every county in a state should turn in results within a one-hour window per state. This will prevent "finding votes" when felt necessary.
  • Election Day should be a national holiday, to cut off grumbling about access to the polls. Keep them open sunup to sundown, then let the counting begin. It should be very, very clear by sunrise the next day who has won what, with some exceptional cases always cropping up.
  • Absentee and early voting should be rare and for very good reason (military service, and perhaps a couple other exceptions), with a clear chain of custody for each ballot.
  • Everyone who wants to vote in a given year should have to re-register two to four months ahead of time for each election (give plenty of time for this), with a special, photo-included voting ID issued for each election year. This would eliminate arguments concerning how many voters are available in a given area.
These would at once eliminate the vast majority of griping about results and prevent most of the easier avenues for cheating. These changes are all possible, and would streamline what is a truly messy system.

As some folks are saying now, accuracy is more important than speed. If all the ballots can't be legalized and counted in the 24 hour period, then what? Some states haven't counted all the legal ballots on Friday - three days after Election Day.

Let's say a polling place has 60,000 ballots. If it takes 1 second to remove the ballot from the box and unfold it, it would take 16.7 hours to do that to all 60,000 ballots. 5 seconds on each ballot would take 83.3 hours or about 3.5 days.

Of course everything could be computerized. A touch screen in each booth, with the results immediately going to a central server that tabulates the results instantly. Hackers would have a field day with such a system. When our son worked for a slot machine company, he learned that all the slot machines are hard wired to the onsite server that is hardwired to the payout machines. They don't trust wireless connection. Part of his job was programming security in their slot machines. Casino owners get a bit upset when the slots don't work right. So do election officials.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

jebutler

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2020, 01:48:05 PM »
Polling is broken and I don't think it really needs to be fixed.  Polling and the media go hand in glove.  No one trusts the media for fairness.  The media use the polls.  Thus no one trusts the polls.  The pollsters write the questions for those blue zip codes then proceed to ask those questions to people living in red zip codes.  What benefit does it do anybody to answer a pollster?  What benefit does it do anybody to listen to the media say, "The polls say XYZ?"       


The polling predicting nearly everything that's happening. States that counted mail-in ballots first would have Biden ahead and Trump would close the gap as in-person ballots were counted. States that counted mail-in ballots last would be giving a larger percentage of votes to Biden. Populated areas, like Philadelphia, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Atlanta, where the volume of ballots makes getting returns slower, would favor Biden.


Sorry, but you're wrong. Polling indicated a "blue wave" with the Democrats taking the Senate, expanding their majority in the House, and a Biden landslide.

None of that happened.

Here is a breakdown on how Trump did vs. the RCP average in different states:

OH: 7.2
WI: 6.2
IA: 6.2
TX: 4.4
FL: 4.3
NV: 1.5
NC: 1.2
PA: 1.1

Notice that only three of those states is within the margin of error. Also note that this was the average, many individual polls were way off. ABC/WashPost poll had Biden ahead by 17 points in Wisconsin; Trump lost by .6%.

Maybe being off by 16 points is your definition of "polling predicting nearly everything that's happening." But I don't think so.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

jebutler

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2020, 01:49:54 PM »
See my comment elsewhere, Pastor Fienen. In 2016 we had an array of impeachable offenses, clear evidence of Russian involvement in the election and other matters requiring attention. We do not have those things this year.

Aren't you the guy who argued that LBJ dropped out of his reelection campaign because he felt he had to take responsibility for Vietnam?

Yeah. Let's put this comment right there with that one.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2020, 03:50:10 PM »
I think a major effect of Trump's populism will be that at the local level the GOP will no longer concede urban centers to the Democrats in future elections. It wouldn't surprise me to see big city mayoral and city council races start to become competitive again, and urban congressional districts not being decided in the Dem primary.

Even here in Indiana, in my little corner of it-- a red township in a blue county in a red state-- several Democrats were running unopposed down ballot. But I think those days might be fading. The old urban machines held together by unions, minorities, the Democrat party, community organizers, and in many cases the mafia are already starting to crumble. In the coming years, more and more people aren't going to buy the line that says common sense efforts against voter fraud-- ID laws, registration deadlines, signature checks, etc.-- are really just thinly disguised efforts aimed at racist voter suppression. 

James J Eivan

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2020, 11:27:54 PM »
Aren't you the guy who argued that LBJ dropped out of his reelection campaign because he felt he had to take responsibility for Vietnam?

Yeah. Let's put this comment right there with that one.
LBJ learned how to play the “game“. LBJ had an election stolen from him… Later in life he returned the favor and stole an election from an opponent.  He wasn’t called landslide Lyndon for nothing!
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 11:45:11 PM by James »

Randy Bosch

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2020, 09:05:20 AM »
Actually, the Presidential/VicePresidential Election is not over until the Electoral College votes.  8)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2020, 09:42:05 AM »
The former governor of Illinois, who is spent time in prison on corruption charges, so he knows a thing or two about big city machine politics and political shenanigans, was quoted as saying that if the question is whether the Democrats are stealing votes in Philadelphia, his response is, “Is the pope Catholic?” He would know more about it than anyone in this forum, and in his mind it is simply par for the course for old Democrat machines in massive, northern urban centers to do whatever it takes and expect to get away with it.

The massive discussion underway about whether this election is being stolen has merit on both sides.

John_Hannah

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2020, 10:04:59 AM »

The former governor of Illinois, who is spent time in prison on corruption charges, so he knows a thing or two about big city machine politics and political shenanigans, was quoted as saying that if the question is whether the Democrats are stealing votes in Philadelphia, his response is, “Is the pope Catholic?”


Actually, there are some Catholics today who, if asked, "Is the Pope Catholic?" will answer "NO!!! Not Francis."     :D ::)

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2020, 10:11:12 AM »
Looking ahead once the voting essentially comes to an official close (whenever that will be), and the electoral college officially votes, and Biden is declared the president, it seems that Trump will not concede and will accept a declaration of Biden as president only via a Supreme Court decision.  As interesting and maddening as the election itself was, this next chapter may prove to be equally interesting - and maddening. Although all this is somewhat reminiscent of Florida in 2000, it also sends us into unexplored waters as well.  It will provide another civics lesson in the constitution's fine print that few read and fewer consider.  Although the networks will 'call' the election for Biden very soon (I predict as early as the end of today, but who knows), the next chapter will be recounts (some requested, some automatic), lawsuits in several states, and appeals to the Supreme Court.  The result will probably come out the same - Biden as the next president.  But if we think we were waiting a long time just to have ballots counted, we are in for another protracted wait as the next stage begins.   
Pastor Don Engebretson
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James S. Rustad

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2020, 10:34:40 AM »
Looking ahead once the voting essentially comes to an official close (whenever that will be), and the electoral college officially votes, and Biden is declared the president, it seems that Trump will not concede and will accept a declaration of Biden as president only via a Supreme Court decision.  As interesting and maddening as the election itself was, this next chapter may prove to be equally interesting - and maddening. Although all this is somewhat reminiscent of Florida in 2000, it also sends us into unexplored waters as well.  It will provide another civics lesson in the constitution's fine print that few read and fewer consider.  Although the networks will 'call' the election for Biden very soon (I predict as early as the end of today, but who knows), the next chapter will be recounts (some requested, some automatic), lawsuits in several states, and appeals to the Supreme Court.  The result will probably come out the same - Biden as the next president.  But if we think we were waiting a long time just to have ballots counted, we are in for another protracted wait as the next stage begins.

Assuming that no huge fraud is proven (very unlikely), the electoral college will vote and Biden will be elected - barring a number of "faithless electors" - and Biden will be sworn in.  At that point Trump is powerless.  Government agencies (including the military) will no longer take orders from him.  Worst case, he is ejected from the White House as a trespasser.  I doubt any of the dire predictions of what might happen will happen (including the trespasser meme).

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2020, 10:41:26 AM »
Peter writes:
The former governor of Illinois, who is spent time in prison on corruption charges, so he knows a thing or two about big city machine politics and political shenanigans, was quoted as saying that if the question is whether the Democrats are stealing votes in Philadelphia, his response is, “Is the pope Catholic?” He would know more about it than anyone in this forum, and in his mind it is simply par for the course for old Democrat machines in massive, northern urban centers to do whatever it takes and expect to get away with it.

I comment:
What is this, Peter? A grade-C gangster movie by a wannabe Scorsese? Get real. A multi-corrupt Illinois politician doing time for multi-crimes and you think he has a key to something? Have we really gone that low in this modest forum? Are you really so desperate for the word, "corruption," to be thrown around?
Respect for law and for the people involves should suggest that nothing - repeat nothing - about corruption matters unless there is evidence presented by credible people in the proper places.
But I'm a writer, always with book and plot ideas. So let's take it this way.
The politician-con is heard joking in the yard about the Philadelphia election. Another con gets on the phone to his ex-brother-in-law who is connected to the Trump campaign. And up the ladder it goes.
Two days later, guys in nice suits visit the jailed politician. But he's no fool.
"Whatcha got for me?" he says.
"We could probably get you out of here, maybe right now, maybe in a month or two. If you provide the right information."
"Yeah," says the con, "the right information, I think I got stuff you're gonna think is real right."
The suits lean forward.
"But I'm gonna need a little more," says the con, "You know, maybe some walking-around money, maybe a nice stake for a new life on the outside."
"Could be possible," says a suit. "If your stuff is good."
The con laughs "Oh it's good. But there's only one thing."
"What's that?
"How true do you want it to be? I'll have to give it to you a little ways down on the 'truth scale,' but just tell me how far down I can go."
(And the rest of the dialogue plans how many lies the suits will buy to attack Pennsylvania voting.)
That's how I think this might be handled in real life.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 10:43:07 AM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

James J Eivan

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2020, 10:49:25 AM »
Looking ahead once the voting essentially comes to an official close (whenever that will be), and the electoral college officially votes, and Biden is declared the president, it seems that Trump will not concede and will accept a declaration of Biden as president only via a Supreme Court decision.  As interesting and maddening as the election itself was, this next chapter may prove to be equally interesting - and maddening. Although all this is somewhat reminiscent of Florida in 2000, it also sends us into unexplored waters as well.  It will provide another civics lesson in the constitution's fine print that few read and fewer consider.  Although the networks will 'call' the election for Biden very soon (I predict as early as the end of today, but who knows), the next chapter will be recounts (some requested, some automatic), lawsuits in several states, and appeals to the Supreme Court.  The result will probably come out the same - Biden as the next president.  But if we think we were waiting a long time just to have ballots counted, we are in for another protracted wait as the next stage begins.   
Perhaps as following the 2000 election, major election reforms will be enacted before 2024.  Florida’s count was in essence completed before midnight ... either other states need to adopt the Florida model ... or these slow counting states need transparency in demonstrating in the future they are unable to function in timely manner such as Florida has.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2020, 11:06:06 AM »
Peter writes:
The former governor of Illinois, who is spent time in prison on corruption charges, so he knows a thing or two about big city machine politics and political shenanigans, was quoted as saying that if the question is whether the Democrats are stealing votes in Philadelphia, his response is, “Is the pope Catholic?” He would know more about it than anyone in this forum, and in his mind it is simply par for the course for old Democrat machines in massive, northern urban centers to do whatever it takes and expect to get away with it.

I comment:
What is this, Peter? A grade-C gangster movie by a wannabe Scorsese? Get real. A multi-corrupt Illinois politician doing time for multi-crimes and you think he has a key to something? Have we really gone that low in this modest forum? Are you really so desperate for the word, "corruption," to be thrown around?
Respect for law and for the people involves should suggest that nothing - repeat nothing - about corruption matters unless there is evidence presented by credible people in the proper places.
But I'm a writer, always with book and plot ideas. So let's take it this way.
The politician-con is heard joking in the yard about the Philadelphia election. Another con gets on the phone to his ex-brother-in-law who is connected to the Trump campaign. And up the ladder it goes.
Two days later, guys in nice suits visit the jailed politician. But he's no fool.
"Whatcha got for me?" he says.
"We could probably get you out of here, maybe right now, maybe in a month or two. If you provide the right information."
"Yeah," says the con, "the right information, I think I got stuff you're gonna think is real right."
The suits lean forward.
"But I'm gonna need a little more," says the con, "You know, maybe some walking-around money, maybe a nice stake for a new life on the outside."
"Could be possible," says a suit. "If your stuff is good."
The con laughs "Oh it's good. But there's only one thing."
"What's that?
"How true do you want it to be? I'll have to give it to you a little ways down on the 'truth scale,' but just tell me how far down I can go."
(And the rest of the dialogue plans how many lies the suits will buy to attack Pennsylvania voting.)
That's how I think this might be handled in real life.
Pretty rich coming from a guy who saw invisible Russian interference in our elections for four years without any credible evidence from any credible people. The DNC bought a lie, planted it, and investigated it relentlessly so that the words "corruption" and "stolen election" would adhere to the 2016 results for president's entire term.

The Illinois ex-governor and ex-con is now in media. He was asked about political corruption. He is part of the national conversation on this. He knows WAY more about it than you. It is still just his opinion, among many floating around out there. But worth considering.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2020, 11:24:20 AM »
It suddenly occurred to me a real tragedy that comes out of the results of the 2020 elections. For the last half decade the entire comedy industry has coasted along on the assurance that all they had to do was mention Trump and their audiences would automatically laugh as though they had just heard the greatest joke. Late night hosts didn't have to put in any work, they had Trump to mock and complain about.


Pity the poor comedians who will now have to work about being funny.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2020, 11:31:03 AM »
Everyone is now declaring Biden the victor in Pennsylvania. The 30 electoral votes give him the presidency.
He is now referred to as president-elect.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.