Author Topic: Now that the 2020 Election is over....  (Read 98813 times)

Marshall Hahn

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #660 on: November 19, 2020, 10:46:34 AM »
Pastor Hahn, our secretary of state’s visit to the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and the comments about the “made in Israel“ label that could be attached to products made there is troublesome. He is the first top US diplomat to visit settlement in that much contested area. Such things should be left to the new administration, not finagled in the final weeks of the outgoing administration.

Possibly.  But that does not negate the very real progress made in using economic considerations between Israel and Muslim countries to help stabilize the region, in my opinion. It is a possible game-changer.  What you refer to are the details of how it ought to be implemented.  You may be right, but my main point stands.  If these objections are used to dismantle the progress made, I believe it would be a mistake.

Marshall Hahn

Marshall Hahn

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #661 on: November 19, 2020, 10:48:15 AM »
I also recall similar warnings about the dangers of moving our embassy to Jerusalem.  I have not seen any of those apocalyptic predictions come true.

Marshall Hahn

Julio

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #662 on: November 19, 2020, 07:57:36 PM »
I also recall similar warnings about the dangers of moving our embassy to Jerusalem.  I have not seen any of those apocalyptic predictions come true.

Marshall Hahn
Numerous presidents have indicated that the US Embassy in Israel should be in Jerusalem ... President Trump kept his campaign promise to finally locate the US Embassy in Jerusalem.

Thankfully the intimidating posturing of the enemies of the Jewish government apparently have more bark than bite 🐕🤓
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 11:18:32 PM by Julio »

Dan Fienen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #663 on: November 19, 2020, 09:17:22 PM »
I also recall similar warnings about the dangers of moving our embassy to Jerusalem.  I have not seen any of those apocalyptic predictions come true.

Marshall Hahn
Numerous presidents have indicated that the US Embassy in Israel should be in Jerusalem ... President Trump kept his campaign promise to finally locate the US Embassy in Jerusalem.

Thankfully the intimidating posturing if enemies of the Jewish government apparently have more bark than bite 🐕🤓
We live by faith and not by sight, we just have to have faith that those disastrous effects of Trump are/will happen.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #664 on: November 20, 2020, 08:36:37 AM »
Pastor Hahn, our secretary of state’s visit to the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and the comments about the “made in Israel“ label that could be attached to products made there is troublesome. He is the first top US diplomat to visit settlement in that much contested area. Such things should be left to the new administration, not finagled in the final weeks of the outgoing administration.

Possibly.  But that does not negate the very real progress made in using economic considerations between Israel and Muslim countries to help stabilize the region, in my opinion. It is a possible game-changer.  What you refer to are the details of how it ought to be implemented.  You may be right, but my main point stands.  If these objections are used to dismantle the progress made, I believe it would be a mistake.

Marshall Hahn

It's like climate change or gun policy.  Leftists screech apocalyptic warnings.  A compliant and uncritical media repeats them, pooh-poohing those who disagree. 

Years pass and apocalyptic warnings do not come to pass.  Leftists and the compliant uncritical media ignore past apocalyptic warnings in favor of repeating new ones.

Rinse, repeat.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #665 on: November 20, 2020, 08:37:07 AM »
I should note -- I am not a climate change denier.  But I am an apocalyptic screeching denier.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #666 on: November 20, 2020, 09:30:33 AM »
Whatever good the president did in allowing the development of the vaccine is being overshadowed by harm he is doing in his current attempts to overturn the results of the election.This has gone far beyond trying to make sure that the counts are accurate. He’s actually asking Those he thinks might be his friends in state legislatures to disregard the results of voting in their state if it went against him.
His chief minion, Giuliani, screams unproven conspiracy theories and other garbage. And is laughed out of court.
If the rule of law prevails, this will come to nothing. But the fact that he is using this tactic In an attempt to nullify the election in states that went against him will be his legacy. It will be a sorry, potentially criminal and treasonous legacy. And our democracy is still under assault from the man who is still our president.
If anybody can offer me a defense of his current tactics, I would like to hear it.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 09:50:22 AM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis. Preaching and presiding for Episcopalians next Sunday.

Julio

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #667 on: November 20, 2020, 09:36:53 AM »
I also recall similar warnings about the dangers of moving our embassy to Jerusalem.  I have not seen any of those apocalyptic predictions come true.

Marshall Hahn
Numerous presidents have indicated that the US Embassy in Israel should be in Jerusalem ... President Trump kept his campaign promise to finally locate the US Embassy in Jerusalem.

Thankfully the intimidating posturing if enemies of the Jewish government apparently have more bark than bite 🐕🤓
We live by faith and not by sight, we just have to have faith that those disastrous effects of Trump are/will happen.
That’s odd ... where was anyone blaming President Trump for any disastrous effects??

It was a very great plus for him to fulfill the promises of numerous previous administrations.

Perhaps the tragedy is that the peace accords reached among various enemy states over the past year or so has been white washed by the progressive media campaign.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #668 on: November 20, 2020, 10:21:11 AM »
Whatever good the president did in allowing the development of the vaccine is being overshadowed by harm he is doing in his current attempts to overturn the results of the election.This has gone far beyond trying to make sure that the counts are accurate. He’s actually asking Those he thinks might be his friends in state legislatures to disregard the results of voting in their state if it went against him.
His chief minion, Giuliani, screams unproven conspiracy theories and other garbage. And is laughed out of court.
If the rule of law prevails, this will come to nothing. But the fact that he is using this tactic In an attempt to nullify the election in states that went against him will be his legacy. It will be a sorry, potentially criminal and treasonous legacy. And our democracy is still under assault from the man who is still our president.
If anybody can offer me a defense of his current tactics, I would like to hear it.
The integrity of elections matters. Whether it ultimately changes the current electoral vote count or not, the investigation into election security issues and potential fraud is well worthwhile for the sake of confidence in future elections. And it harms literally nothing. It doesn't assault democracy to demand an accounting of votes. It doesn't throw out the rule of law to take things to court, it reinforces the rule of law. Nobody is trying to nullify an election. They're trying to prove that they won an election that the evidence so far appears to show they lost. If they don't prevail, so be it. If they do prevail, so be it. That's how democracy functions in a representative republic with rule of law and courts.   

Jim Butler

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #669 on: November 20, 2020, 10:21:32 AM »
Whatever good the president did in allowing the development of the vaccine is being overshadowed by harm he is doing in his current attempts to overturn the results of the election.This has gone far beyond trying to make sure that the counts are accurate. He’s actually asking Those he thinks might be his friends in state legislatures to disregard the results of voting in their state if it went against him.
His chief minion, Giuliani, screams unproven conspiracy theories and other garbage. And is laughed out of court.
If the rule of law prevails, this will come to nothing. But the fact that he is using this tactic In an attempt to nullify the election in states that went against him will be his legacy. It will be a sorry, potentially criminal and treasonous legacy. And our democracy is still under assault from the man who is still our president.
If anybody can offer me a defense of his current tactics, I would like to hear it.

On the one hand, it's unfortunate that people like Hillary Clinton advised to Joe Biden that he should not concede the election "under any circumstances" and that he could probably win if he doesn't "give an inch, and if we are as focused and relentless as the other side is" and no one told her she was speaking foolishness. (She also spoke of the massive legal group that Biden had amassed to file suits in various states.) That effectively gives him cover for what he is doing. His supporters could simply say, "He's following Hillary's advice! He's just doing exactly what Biden would do if the tables were turned!" (See also Stacey Abrams in Georgia who has never conceded the governor's election there and still claims she won that election.)

Was the election close? Wishing a quarter of a percent in some states. Was there fraud in this election? Most likely there was. Was it enough to overturn the vote? No. After all, a quarter of a percent is still thousands of votes; elections can be stolen by hundreds of votes, but not thousands.

Responsible voices--see Rich Lowry, Dan McGaughlin, and Jim Geraghaty at National Review--have said he should concede and move on, basically making the same argument you do. But that isn't who Trump is. Given his immense popularity with his base, many in the GOP are scared to say anything against him and are playing along with him.

It's an ugly, ungracious exit. But, unlike the vaccine news, largely unimportant. On January 20, Trump will no longer be president. But the vaccine will be distributed and lives will be saved.
The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time. -- VP Kamala Harris

D. Engebretson

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #670 on: November 20, 2020, 10:43:38 AM »
Regardless of what Trump does now the election results will not be overturned.  Biden will be the next president.  I am not sure what Trump intends with his recent activity.  Some think he's trying to overturn the election. I think by now he knows that's not going to happen.  Too long of a shot. And insiders are indicating as much. Some will conclude it's all a scam as he's just biding his time raising money to pay down his debt. Others believe he's setting the stage for a 2024 run.  Not sure of any of these theories, and that's all they are at this point, as he has not given us a lot of insight, although his tweets seem to indicate hope of reversing the election results.  But I think it's all bluster.  Insiders more and more reveal that Trump realizes he has lost and won't change the results.  Trump from the beginning has had a theatrical flare.  He has been combative. He put himself out there as the 'outsider' to Washington. That's his style and brand.  Many don't like it, and it no doubt accounts for some of the loss he could have avoided.  I don't know.  Even many Republicans are frustrated.  I trust it will not be long now that he will acknowledge his loss in some way, even if he never actually concedes the election.  He may want to remain on record as claiming the election was stolen from him.  Not sure.  At any rate all of this will not keep Biden from assuming the office, and if Trump starts the transition process in the near foreseeable future I'm sure all of Biden's plans and policies will be right on track.  I'm not panicking at all. 

Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #671 on: November 20, 2020, 11:51:52 AM »
Pastor Hahn, our secretary of state’s visit to the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and the comments about the “made in Israel“ label that could be attached to products made there is troublesome. He is the first top US diplomat to visit settlement in that much contested area. Such things should be left to the new administration, not finagled in the final weeks of the outgoing administration.

Possibly.  But that does not negate the very real progress made in using economic considerations between Israel and Muslim countries to help stabilize the region, in my opinion. It is a possible game-changer.  What you refer to are the details of how it ought to be implemented.  You may be right, but my main point stands.  If these objections are used to dismantle the progress made, I believe it would be a mistake.

Marshall Hahn

It's like climate change or gun policy.  Leftists screech apocalyptic warnings.  A compliant and uncritical media repeats them, pooh-poohing those who disagree. 

Years pass and apocalyptic warnings do not come to pass.  Leftists and the compliant uncritical media ignore past apocalyptic warnings in favor of repeating new ones.

Rinse, repeat.

And Republicans have touted the benefits of "trickle down economics" from the Reagan years - and repeatedly it doesn't work as they expect; but they keep trying it. (It does benefit those at the top, but not so much where it's supposed to trickle down to.)


It could also be stated that the predicted apocalypse didn't happen because people heeded the warnings and made some differences in the way we do things. We have cleaned up the environment. We are seeking to reduce our carbon emissions.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 11:53:50 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #672 on: November 20, 2020, 11:57:47 AM »
Whatever good the president did in allowing the development of the vaccine is being overshadowed by harm he is doing in his current attempts to overturn the results of the election.This has gone far beyond trying to make sure that the counts are accurate. He’s actually asking Those he thinks might be his friends in state legislatures to disregard the results of voting in their state if it went against him.
His chief minion, Giuliani, screams unproven conspiracy theories and other garbage. And is laughed out of court.
If the rule of law prevails, this will come to nothing. But the fact that he is using this tactic In an attempt to nullify the election in states that went against him will be his legacy. It will be a sorry, potentially criminal and treasonous legacy. And our democracy is still under assault from the man who is still our president.
If anybody can offer me a defense of his current tactics, I would like to hear it.
The integrity of elections matters. Whether it ultimately changes the current electoral vote count or not, the investigation into election security issues and potential fraud is well worthwhile for the sake of confidence in future elections. And it harms literally nothing. It doesn't assault democracy to demand an accounting of votes. It doesn't throw out the rule of law to take things to court, it reinforces the rule of law. Nobody is trying to nullify an election. They're trying to prove that they won an election that the evidence so far appears to show they lost. If they don't prevail, so be it. If they do prevail, so be it. That's how democracy functions in a representative republic with rule of law and courts.   


How many investigations are necessary? The state agencies responsible for their elections have stated that there was no widespread fraud. Repeatedly, lawsuits from Trump are thrown out of court for lack of evidence. There are officials, even from the Trump administration, who have stated that this was the most secure election in history. (The Trump guy lost his job for saying it.) Why isn't that enough?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

David Garner

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #673 on: November 20, 2020, 12:01:37 PM »
Pastor Hahn, our secretary of state’s visit to the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and the comments about the “made in Israel“ label that could be attached to products made there is troublesome. He is the first top US diplomat to visit settlement in that much contested area. Such things should be left to the new administration, not finagled in the final weeks of the outgoing administration.

Possibly.  But that does not negate the very real progress made in using economic considerations between Israel and Muslim countries to help stabilize the region, in my opinion. It is a possible game-changer.  What you refer to are the details of how it ought to be implemented.  You may be right, but my main point stands.  If these objections are used to dismantle the progress made, I believe it would be a mistake.

Marshall Hahn

It's like climate change or gun policy.  Leftists screech apocalyptic warnings.  A compliant and uncritical media repeats them, pooh-poohing those who disagree. 

Years pass and apocalyptic warnings do not come to pass.  Leftists and the compliant uncritical media ignore past apocalyptic warnings in favor of repeating new ones.

Rinse, repeat.

It could also be stated that the predicted apocalypse didn't happen because people heeded the warnings and made some differences in the way we do things. We have cleaned up the environment. We are seeking to reduce our carbon emissions.

It could be said, were it not so laughably false.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

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Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« Reply #674 on: November 20, 2020, 12:06:51 PM »
Peter writes:
The integrity of elections matters. Whether it ultimately changes the current electoral vote count or not, the investigation into election security issues and potential fraud is well worthwhile for the sake of confidence in future elections.
I comment:
OK, yes. But everything has been examined by everyone who is supposed to be doing that. And He simply says, as he did of his national cyber-security officer "He's wrong." There has been no evidence of widespread fraud, no evidence of widespread error. But the complaints and allegations go on.

Peter writes:
And it harms literally nothing. It doesn't assault democracy to demand an accounting of votes. It doesn't throw out the rule of law to take things to court, it reinforces the rule of law. Nobody is trying to nullify an election.
I comment:
Actually, he is, but the effort will fail. The harm is because he is undermining our confidence in everything about our electoral process. And that is his intent, to invalidate whatever the Biden administration undertakes. We pray that sensible Republicans will not fall for this nasty ploy.
And here's what I hope the new president will do. Ignore Trump. Don't respond to any nonsense he says. Simply ignore him. The campaign people in various states may have to pay some attention, but nationally, pretend that Donald Trump does not exist. That will heap burning coals upon his head.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis. Preaching and presiding for Episcopalians next Sunday.