Author Topic: Reformation Joys  (Read 643 times)

Weedon

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Reformation Joys
« on: October 25, 2020, 10:42:16 AM »
Blessed Reformation (obs.)! Today was great joy for us. Things slowly but surely inch back to pre-COVID. Today, after Walther’s beautiful prelude on “A Mighty Fortress” by the Katnor, we had Procession into the Church with Cross and Gospel Book, during which the congregation sang “A Mighty Fortress.” The choir today was formed of a handful of school students (including two of my grandchildren!), plus my wife. They handled the responsive singing of Introit, and also the singing of Gradual and Alleluia Verse. No Gospel procession yet. But we did sing all ten stanzas of “Salvation Unto Us Has Come” (men and boys on some stanzas, women and girls on others - love it when we do our hymns that way and half the congregation is preaching to the other half!). Pastor Ball preached a fine homily that wove together the second and third readings. During the extended lavabo (we actually leave the altar, retreat to the sacristy and really wash our hands), my wife blessed us with Mozart’s “Ave Verum” (English words printed in bulletin). Distribution was still the COVID way (no altar rail; purificators dipped in ever-clear; and saddest of all, no distribution hymns). The last hymn was “Lord, Keep Us Steadfast” during the last stanza of which we processed out. One of our members said afterwards: “That was almost a real church service!”
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 10:49:23 AM by Weedon »
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James

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2020, 12:19:43 PM »
From our in person Divine Service folder ...


The Law leaves us speechless, for it condemns us and holds us accountable to God.


By the Law, every sin is unmasked, every sinner declared guilty.


In Christ, by His blood, we receive faith.


This faith justifies us apart from the works of the Law.


Thanks be to God that Christ gives us the Gospel.


By it, sin is forgiven and sinners declared innocent.


This is our freedom in Christ, proclaimed throughout every nation, tribe, language, and people.
If necessary, there will be a peaceful transfer of power on Jan 20, 2021.

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Dan Fienen

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2020, 02:50:54 PM »
I went in a different direction this Reformation Sunday. I based the service and sermon around Psalm 46. I pointed out the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith that was the heart of the Reformation, as seen in the Epistle and Gospel, but also that the Reformation took place in troubled and perilous times, times that Psalm 46 addresses.


I then segued into how we can look to God in our troubled times as our refuge and strength. I also dealt with the question that has been posed to me of how God could allow such a thing as this pandemic. In a world that is tainted by sin, bad things happen, even things like diseases. But also in things like this pandemic, while the root cause was a disease outside of our control, humans had a hand in its spread and fumbled responses. Parents will often expect their children to clean up after their own messes, so God at times expects us to clean up our messes, and it is good for us to have to do so. God can make good things come from bad. Sometimes we are simply not going to understand why God does what He does. He is God and we are not. But over all we can trust that God is our fortress and strength, He does and will care for us, so we have hope. The God who loves us enough to come in Jesus to die for us to forgive us and save us, is the God who we care for us even in theses troubled times.


For hymns, i used, of course, "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God", but also "Be Still My Soul," and "Our God, Our Help in Ages Past."
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Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2020, 04:47:30 PM »
...my wife blessed us with Mozart’s “Ave Verum”...

Wow! "Ave Verum Corpus." Absolutely heavenly.


Pr. Don Kirchner

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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2020, 05:38:51 PM »
Preached Romans 3, "Our Propitiation." Interesting, both NKJV and ESV retained "propitiation" rather than opt for a more modern translation.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2020, 06:38:23 PM »
Preached Romans 3, "Our Propitiation." Interesting, both NKJV and ESV retained "propitiation" rather than opt for a more modern translation.

How many lay people do you think understood the meaning of the word "propitiation" before your sermon?

I note that Lowe & Nida's Greek Lexicon state that "propitiation" is an inaccurate translation of ἱλαστήριον. I quote:

the means by which sins are forgiventhe means of forgiveness, expiation. Though some traditional translations render ἱλαστήριον as propitiation, this involves a wrong interpretation of the term in question. Propitiation is essentially a process by which one does a favor to a person in order to make him or her favorably disposed, but in the NT God is never the object of propitiation since he is already on the side of people. ἱλασμός and ἱλαστήριον denote the means of forgiveness and not propitiation. 40.12





« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 06:48:10 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2020, 06:45:01 PM »
Preached Romans 3, "Our Propitiation." Interesting, both NKJV and ESV retained "propitiation" rather than opt for a more modern translation.

How many lay people do you think understood the meaning of the word "propitiation" before your sermon?

I note that Lowe & Nida's Greek Lexicon state that "propitiation" is an inaccurate translation of ἱλαστήριον. I quote:

the means by which sins are forgiventhe means of forgiveness, expiation. Though some traditional translations render ἱλαστήριον as propitiation, this involves a wrong interpretation of the term in question. Propitiation is essentially a process by which one does a favor to a person in order to make him or her favorably disposed, but in the NT God is never the object of propitiation since he is already on the side of people. ἱλασμός and ἱλαστήριον denote the means of forgiveness and not propitiation. 40.12
How many lay people could give a good definition of glory, hosanna, alleluia, amen, holiness, etc. before a preacher/teacher explained it?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2020, 06:54:09 PM »
Preached Romans 3, "Our Propitiation." Interesting, both NKJV and ESV retained "propitiation" rather than opt for a more modern translation.

How many lay people do you think understood the meaning of the word "propitiation" before your sermon?

I note that Lowe & Nida's Greek Lexicon state that "propitiation" is an inaccurate translation of ἱλαστήριον. I quote:

the means by which sins are forgiventhe means of forgiveness, expiation. Though some traditional translations render ἱλαστήριον as propitiation, this involves a wrong interpretation of the term in question. Propitiation is essentially a process by which one does a favor to a person in order to make him or her favorably disposed, but in the NT God is never the object of propitiation since he is already on the side of people. ἱλασμός and ἱλαστήριον denote the means of forgiveness and not propitiation. 40.12
How many lay people could give a good definition of glory, hosanna, alleluia, amen, holiness, etc. before a preacher/teacher explained it?


I suspect that they use the words: glory, hosanna, alleluia, amen, holiness much more often in their normal conversations than they use "propitiation."


What do you make of Lowe & Nida's argument that "propitiation" is an improper translation of ἱλαστήριον in Romans 3:25? I also note that neither the NKJV nor ESV use "propitiation" in the other occurrence of the Greek word in Hebrews 9:5.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2020, 07:16:10 PM »
Preached Romans 3, "Our Propitiation." Interesting, both NKJV and ESV retained "propitiation" rather than opt for a more modern translation.
How many lay people do you think understood the meaning of the word "propitiation" before your sermon?

I note that Lowe & Nida's Greek Lexicon state that "propitiation" is an inaccurate translation of ἱλαστήριον. I quote:

the means by which sins are forgiventhe means of forgiveness, expiation. Though some traditional translations render ἱλαστήριον as propitiation, this involves a wrong interpretation of the term in question. Propitiation is essentially a process by which one does a favor to a person in order to make him or her favorably disposed, but in the NT God is never the object of propitiation since he is already on the side of people. ἱλασμός and ἱλαστήριον denote the means of forgiveness and not propitiation. 40.12
How many lay people could give a good definition of glory, hosanna, alleluia, all men, holiness, etc. before a preacher/teacher explained it?
So your solution is to continue the dumbing down of Christians Rev Stoffregen? Justification? An every day word? Sanctification? An every day word? Trinity and/or triune? Every day words?

Tragically some of our hymnody is dumbed down… The phrase “wheat and tares together sown” is tragically bastardized in some hymnals as “wheat and weeds together sown” tragically missing the significance that the wheat plant and the tare plant are virtually identical until the wheat begins to head out with the grain.

Pastors ... thank you for your sound teaching ... thank you for following the Lord’s example of not giving up ... when we are dense ... stubborn ... both ... and worse.

Teach them when they are young… Prayerfully the knowledge will remain for a lifetime.
If necessary, there will be a peaceful transfer of power on Jan 20, 2021.

In the event election fraud is proven in the courts of our country, there will be an inauguration ceremony ... no transfer of power necessary.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2020, 07:42:56 PM »
Preached Romans 3, "Our Propitiation." Interesting, both NKJV and ESV retained "propitiation" rather than opt for a more modern translation.
How many lay people do you think understood the meaning of the word "propitiation" before your sermon?

I note that Lowe & Nida's Greek Lexicon state that "propitiation" is an inaccurate translation of ἱλαστήριον. I quote:

the means by which sins are forgiventhe means of forgiveness, expiation. Though some traditional translations render ἱλαστήριον as propitiation, this involves a wrong interpretation of the term in question. Propitiation is essentially a process by which one does a favor to a person in order to make him or her favorably disposed, but in the NT God is never the object of propitiation since he is already on the side of people. ἱλασμός and ἱλαστήριον denote the means of forgiveness and not propitiation. 40.12
How many lay people could give a good definition of glory, hosanna, alleluia, all men, holiness, etc. before a preacher/teacher explained it?
So your solution is to continue the dumbing down of Christians Rev Stoffregen?


I didn't offer a solution. I pointed out two possible problems.
1. "propitiation" is not word that is commonly used (or understood) by people.
2. "propitiation" is an inaccurate translation of ἱλαστήριον in Romans 3:25.


Quote
Tragically some of our hymnody is dumbed down… The phrase “wheat and tares together sown” is tragically bastardized in some hymnals as “wheat and weeds together sown” tragically missing the significance that the wheat plant and the tare plant are virtually identical until the wheat begins to head out with the grain.


"Wheat and tares" are in LBW and ELW; so I don't know which hymnal you might be talking about.


However, checking Matthew 13:25 in the 62 English translations on BibleGateway, 12 used "tares," 7 used "darnel," and 43 used "weeds". Some of those who use "weeds" include a footnote that it appears like wheat.


In checking four Greek-English Lexicons on the word ζιζάνιον (zizanian) none give "tares" as a way of translating the word. It's a weed that resembles wheat, darnel, cheat.

Quote
Teach them when they are young… Prayerfully the knowledge will remain for a lifetime.


But we must be certain that our teaching is accurate. I've had members argue with me that "God helps them who help themselves" is in the Bible. Many people believe that the Bible says that angels have wings. (It doesn't.)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2020, 08:27:49 PM »
From etymonline.com:

"Earliest recorded form of the word in English is propitiatorium "the mercy seat, place of atonement" (c. 1200), translating Greek hilasterion."

Likely the KJV translators had this usage in mind. The modern translators decided to retain it even though it is not a readily recognized term.
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FrPeters

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2020, 08:31:20 PM »
We had two services, both full sung Divine Service Three, with full procession (cross, candles, and Gospel book), 5 hymns, choir anthem (with cherub choir and youth choir joining the adults), handbells, brass, and, at the later service, we confirmed six.  We have never ceased using the chalice though more use individual cups than before.  We use the altar rail with distancing between communicants.  Some wear masks.  Others don't.  Every other pew is roped off but that still leaves us able to seat 150-170.  We still have not had anyone who attends test positive (though a few of our folk who have not been in worship since mid-March have had COVID).  Our preschool has 90 kids without incident, Sunday school continues, all Bible studies are in person, and we have had a congregational picnic -- again without any problems!  We are careful but not fearful and we are encouraged so far.  All of this in a city of 209,000 about 40 minute from Nashville.
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James

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2020, 09:03:19 PM »
We had two services, both full sung Divine Service Three, with full procession (cross, candles, and Gospel book), 5 hymns, choir anthem (with cherub choir and youth choir joining the adults), handbells, brass, and, at the later service, we confirmed six.  We have never ceased using the chalice though more use individual cups than before.  We use the altar rail with distancing between communicants.  Some wear masks.  Others don't.  Every other pew is roped off but that still leaves us able to seat 150-170.  We still have not had anyone who attends test positive (though a few of our folk who have not been in worship since mid-March have had COVID).  Our preschool has 90 kids without incident, Sunday school continues, all Bible studies are in person, and we have had a congregational picnic -- again without any problems!  We are careful but not fearful and we are encouraged so far.  All of this in a city of 209,000 about 40 minute from Nashville.
Pastor ... the saints in you care remind one of Peter ... who walked on the water as long as he trusted and kept his eyes on the Savior.  May the Lord continue to use you ministry to focus their eyes and hearts on Him.
If necessary, there will be a peaceful transfer of power on Jan 20, 2021.

In the event election fraud is proven in the courts of our country, there will be an inauguration ceremony ... no transfer of power necessary.

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2020, 11:04:00 AM »
We celebrated the Affirmation of Baptism in a special service yesterday afternoon so that each confirmand could bring more family members.  Hymns for that service were the same as for the Reformation services in the morning.

A Mighty Fortress
The Church's one Foundation
Thy Strong Word

Our organist played live for the first time since  March.  It was great.  Like others, we had to adapt parts of the service logistically but it was also a powerful reminder for me that God is present and moving, the Word unchanging is still offering its proclamation,

I will be presiding at Affirmation at the country church next week for the class that includes my daughter.  Love this time of year.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Reformation Joys
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2020, 03:05:10 PM »

What do you make of Lowe & Nida's argument that "propitiation" is an improper translation of ἱλαστήριον in Romans 3:25? I also note that neither the NKJV nor ESV use "propitiation" in the other occurrence of the Greek word in Hebrews 9:5.

I had occasion to look at Hebrews 9:5 today where translators use "mercy seat" rather than propitiation. They choose mercy seat, I think, because the term here describes a place rather than what happens (atonement) at that place. The NKJV and ESV are following KJV in this decision.
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