Author Topic: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."  (Read 380 times)

peter_speckhard

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Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« on: October 23, 2020, 09:00:55 PM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/04/your-kids-arent-your-own-rich-lowry/

If you click on the video, you see an MSNBC host in what looks like a promo or campaign commercial format making the case that the problem with getting sufficient funding for public schools comes from the outdated idea that children belong to their parents, who have primary responsibility for them. If only we could disabuse parents of the notion that their children were theirs, we would have better, more comprehensive government-run schools.

I find it to be a chilling argument through and through, and not merely because it begins with the absurd notion that the problem with public schools is underfunding. But even accepting it for the sake of argument, this point of view obviously destroys the "right to privacy." If children belong to the community, then procreative freedom is done for, as is the idea that a fetus may be disposed of if the mother doesn't want it. This is, in fact, the only logical argument for something like the dystopian Handmaid's Tale. But that is the sort of fundamental, philosophical problem that is so large as to be invisible to the people who claim to believe these progressive claims. You can't say that abortion must be legal because my procreative choices are none of anyone else's business, except that raising my children is everyone else's business. And you can't say people are free to be parents if they want to be as long as the community does the parenting.


Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2020, 03:00:32 AM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/04/your-kids-arent-your-own-rich-lowry/

If you click on the video, you see an MSNBC host in what looks like a promo or campaign commercial format making the case that the problem with getting sufficient funding for public schools comes from the outdated idea that children belong to their parents, who have primary responsibility for them. If only we could disabuse parents of the notion that their children were theirs, we would have better, more comprehensive government-run schools.

I find it to be a chilling argument through and through, and not merely because it begins with the absurd notion that the problem with public schools is underfunding. But even accepting it for the sake of argument, this point of view obviously destroys the "right to privacy." If children belong to the community, then procreative freedom is done for, as is the idea that a fetus may be disposed of if the mother doesn't want it. This is, in fact, the only logical argument for something like the dystopian Handmaid's Tale. But that is the sort of fundamental, philosophical problem that is so large as to be invisible to the people who claim to believe these progressive claims. You can't say that abortion must be legal because my procreative choices are none of anyone else's business, except that raising my children is everyone else's business. And you can't say people are free to be parents if they want to be as long as the community does the parenting.


I find it to be an accurate assessment. I've heard retired folks state that they don't believe that they should help fund the schools when their children are all grown. They don't see any direct benefit of increasing their taxes for the school system. One of the consequences of this is that our community has troubles recruiting young doctors. They look at our school system and don't want to bring their children to this community. That certainly affects the oldsters, too.


I wouldn't say that "children belong to the community," but the community has a significant role in nurturing and educating children. Such community involvement is good for the whole community.


Many parents discovered during the quarantine that they are not the best adults to be teaching their children the stuff they should be learning in school by trained (and hopefully, well-paid teachers who have an abundance of supplies).



"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

D. Engebretson

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2020, 09:33:52 AM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/04/your-kids-arent-your-own-rich-lowry/

If you click on the video, you see an MSNBC host in what looks like a promo or campaign commercial format making the case that the problem with getting sufficient funding for public schools comes from the outdated idea that children belong to their parents, who have primary responsibility for them. If only we could disabuse parents of the notion that their children were theirs, we would have better, more comprehensive government-run schools.

I find it to be a chilling argument through and through, and not merely because it begins with the absurd notion that the problem with public schools is underfunding. But even accepting it for the sake of argument, this point of view obviously destroys the "right to privacy." If children belong to the community, then procreative freedom is done for, as is the idea that a fetus may be disposed of if the mother doesn't want it. This is, in fact, the only logical argument for something like the dystopian Handmaid's Tale. But that is the sort of fundamental, philosophical problem that is so large as to be invisible to the people who claim to believe these progressive claims. You can't say that abortion must be legal because my procreative choices are none of anyone else's business, except that raising my children is everyone else's business. And you can't say people are free to be parents if they want to be as long as the community does the parenting.


I find it to be an accurate assessment. I've heard retired folks state that they don't believe that they should help fund the schools when their children are all grown. They don't see any direct benefit of increasing their taxes for the school system. One of the consequences of this is that our community has troubles recruiting young doctors. They look at our school system and don't want to bring their children to this community. That certainly affects the oldsters, too.


I wouldn't say that "children belong to the community," but the community has a significant role in nurturing and educating children. Such community involvement is good for the whole community.


Many parents discovered during the quarantine that they are not the best adults to be teaching their children the stuff they should be learning in school by trained (and hopefully, well-paid teachers who have an abundance of supplies).

When one says that "the community has a significant role in nurturing and educating children," I think that needs qualification.  If you mean the general, community-at-large, I'm not all in. Back in the 90s when I was in Michigan many were waking up to the idea that the moral atmosphere in public school settings could conflict with a family's beliefs.  It led, in part, to a small, but growing homeschooling movement, of which our family was part for many years.  I think that the pandemic, by requiring parents to again assume more responsibility for the education and nurturing of their children, is allowing them to take back much that they abdicated to the public system.  This dynamic may very well reignite a debate of who has the primary responsibility to nurture children.  Little by little parents turned over their role to a system they had little interaction with, seldom realizing even what was being taught, and in some cases, propagandized within those classrooms.  In my own community I am seeing a rising popularity of our Lutheran day school, and I believe that part of that is due to the fact people want a faith-based education for their children, not an education that is sometimes antithetical to faith.  How can the general public community effectively nurture and educate a child when it is highly dysfunctional itself with regard to these areas?  Yes, many parents are struggling with this new role, but they are struggling, in part, because it is new.  In time they will adjust, and their children will be better off for the closer interaction with them.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2020, 09:35:42 AM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/04/your-kids-arent-your-own-rich-lowry/

If you click on the video, you see an MSNBC host in what looks like a promo or campaign commercial format making the case that the problem with getting sufficient funding for public schools comes from the outdated idea that children belong to their parents, who have primary responsibility for them. If only we could disabuse parents of the notion that their children were theirs, we would have better, more comprehensive government-run schools.

I find it to be a chilling argument through and through, and not merely because it begins with the absurd notion that the problem with public schools is underfunding. But even accepting it for the sake of argument, this point of view obviously destroys the "right to privacy." If children belong to the community, then procreative freedom is done for, as is the idea that a fetus may be disposed of if the mother doesn't want it. This is, in fact, the only logical argument for something like the dystopian Handmaid's Tale. But that is the sort of fundamental, philosophical problem that is so large as to be invisible to the people who claim to believe these progressive claims. You can't say that abortion must be legal because my procreative choices are none of anyone else's business, except that raising my children is everyone else's business. And you can't say people are free to be parents if they want to be as long as the community does the parenting.


I find it to be an accurate assessment. I've heard retired folks state that they don't believe that they should help fund the schools when their children are all grown. They don't see any direct benefit of increasing their taxes for the school system. One of the consequences of this is that our community has troubles recruiting young doctors. They look at our school system and don't want to bring their children to this community. That certainly affects the oldsters, too.


I wouldn't say that "children belong to the community," but the community has a significant role in nurturing and educating children. Such community involvement is good for the whole community.


Many parents discovered during the quarantine that they are not the best adults to be teaching their children the stuff they should be learning in school by trained (and hopefully, well-paid teachers who have an abundance of supplies).
That parents take their children to doctors rather than treat them themselves, or entrust their children to trained teachers rather than teaching them themselves, is a normal part of parenting. The parents are still in charge and still responsible. The teachers are still teaching in loco parentis according to the will of the parents. What the video is talking about is not parents who have discovered they need teachers, but teachers who have discovered too many parents who don't want their services. That is, they don't want to be teaching in loco parentis. They want access to the children regardless of the will of the parents.

Public schools do not suffer from lack of funding nearly as much as they suffer from lack of proper use of funds and debilitating regulations. In terms of dollars per pupil, they spend a lot more than many better performing private schools. 

Charles Austin

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2020, 10:20:35 AM »
Some years ago there was a flurry of articles about disturbances in New Jersey schools, that is, students misbehaving and other kinds of trouble, sometimes violent. The article then noted that things seemed much calmer and better in the parochial schools and in the private schools.
Beloved Spouse, with decades experience in public high schools, laughed, and then got mad.
“Do you know why that is?”, She said. “It’s because that if, in private schools, if a student is unmanageable and causes too much trouble, you can simply throw them out. Do you know how hard that is to do for a public school? It is virtually impossible!”
I just ducked my head, and said “Yes, dear.”
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Missing NY/NJ and trips to Europe. I despise Daylight Savings Time which serves no purpose, disrupts my quotidian body clock and (I am reliably told) severely troubles cows and other huggable farm animals.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2020, 10:38:00 AM »
Some years ago there was a flurry of articles about disturbances in New Jersey schools, that is, students misbehaving and other kinds of trouble, sometimes violent. The article then noted that things seemed much calmer and better in the parochial schools and in the private schools.
Beloved Spouse, with decades experience in public high schools, laughed, and then got mad.
“Do you know why that is?”, She said. “It’s because that if, in private schools, if a student is unmanageable and causes too much trouble, you can simply throw them out. Do you know how hard that is to do for a public school? It is virtually impossible!”
I just ducked my head, and said “Yes, dear.”
Very true. Having been associated with a parochial school, I also realize that parochial schools typically do not provide the special education needs of students with the need for those services or do so with assistance from the public schools.


Comparison in cost of education and quality of education between public and parochial schools is like comparing peaches and apricots. Many similarities but also some fundamental differences that complicate comparisons.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

peter_speckhard

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2020, 10:49:02 AM »
Some years ago there was a flurry of articles about disturbances in New Jersey schools, that is, students misbehaving and other kinds of trouble, sometimes violent. The article then noted that things seemed much calmer and better in the parochial schools and in the private schools.
Beloved Spouse, with decades experience in public high schools, laughed, and then got mad.
“Do you know why that is?”, She said. “It’s because that if, in private schools, if a student is unmanageable and causes too much trouble, you can simply throw them out. Do you know how hard that is to do for a public school? It is virtually impossible!”
I just ducked my head, and said “Yes, dear.”
True. Regulations that make the schools into daycare providers and socialization machines rather than places of education can ruin the educational experience for many. The public schools could simply remove the people who are being disruptive, they would be way better.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2020, 11:35:33 AM »
Some years ago there was a flurry of articles about disturbances in New Jersey schools, that is, students misbehaving and other kinds of trouble, sometimes violent. The article then noted that things seemed much calmer and better in the parochial schools and in the private schools.
Beloved Spouse, with decades experience in public high schools, laughed, and then got mad.
“Do you know why that is?”, She said. “It’s because that if, in private schools, if a student is unmanageable and causes too much trouble, you can simply throw them out. Do you know how hard that is to do for a public school? It is virtually impossible!”
I just ducked my head, and said “Yes, dear.”

Do you know how hard that ("throwing out" students) is to do in a parochial school?  If it is a member's kid....."Pastor, that's so-and-so child/grandchild -- we CAN'T risk offending them!"  If it is a non-member's kid...."Pastor, we can't -- it will ruin the church/school reputation in the community."  I have been at my current call for 20+ years, with a PS-6th grade for all those years (and, for a few years, 7th grade), and I believe the grand total of students "thrown out" for behavior issues has been ONE. 

Charles Austin

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2020, 12:00:43 PM »
The point Beloved Spouse was making, Pastor Bohler, is that you, in your church-run school, can simply say "out!" and the miscreant or bad dude or dudette is out.
If you don't do that for risk of offending a big donor to the church or the council member who votes on your salary, or because it would be a "public relations" difficulty, that's your problem. You could do it, along with your parish school board, if you have one. There is no civil law, no complex set of regulations established by state and local politicians, which governs what must happen to permanently expel a student.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 12:02:40 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Missing NY/NJ and trips to Europe. I despise Daylight Savings Time which serves no purpose, disrupts my quotidian body clock and (I am reliably told) severely troubles cows and other huggable farm animals.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2020, 12:13:30 PM »
The point Beloved Spouse was making, Pastor Bohler, is that you, in your church-run school, can simply say "out!" and the miscreant or bad dude or dudette is out.
If you don't do that for risk of offending a big donor to the church or the council member who votes on your salary, that's your problem. You could do it, along with your parish school board, if you have one. There is no civil law, no complex set of regulations established by state and local politicians, which governs what must happen to permanently expel a student.
Agreed. It isn't easy, but it is possible. Even if nobody is removed, just in terms of the educational environment school that is a privilege is not the same thing as school that is a right. Once the government says people are owed daycare with hot meals and supervision for their children regardless of whether they try in class, regardless of what a negative social presence they are, etc. then many parents are going to find a different place for their children to learn even if it means home schooling. Then it spirals. A disproportionate number of those who exit are higher performing kids from stable, education-minded households, which leaves the bad apples as a still small but higher percentage of the student body in public schools. When that reaches a critical mass, deviant behavior has to be normalized, standards have to change, etc. and the spiral continues.

If public schools were set free to be about educating anyone who was willing and able to be educated rather than comprehensively socializing the next generation, they would be drastically better off.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2020, 01:02:18 PM »
The point Beloved Spouse was making, Pastor Bohler, is that you, in your church-run school, can simply say "out!" and the miscreant or bad dude or dudette is out.
If you don't do that for risk of offending a big donor to the church or the council member who votes on your salary, or because it would be a "public relations" difficulty, that's your problem. You could do it, along with your parish school board, if you have one. There is no civil law, no complex set of regulations established by state and local politicians, which governs what must happen to permanently expel a student.

And public schools likewise can expel students.  It probably is written right there in every school district's manuals -- the reasons and procedures for suspension and expulsion.  Now, if they don't actually follow through for this reason or that, then that is their problem.  Right?

peter_speckhard

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2020, 01:13:43 PM »
The point Beloved Spouse was making, Pastor Bohler, is that you, in your church-run school, can simply say "out!" and the miscreant or bad dude or dudette is out.
If you don't do that for risk of offending a big donor to the church or the council member who votes on your salary, or because it would be a "public relations" difficulty, that's your problem. You could do it, along with your parish school board, if you have one. There is no civil law, no complex set of regulations established by state and local politicians, which governs what must happen to permanently expel a student.

And public schools likewise can expel students.  It probably is written right there in every school district's manuals -- the reasons and procedures for suspension and expulsion.  Now, if they don't actually follow through for this reason or that, then that is their problem.  Right?
But it is a much bigger procedural nightmare in the context of rights rather than privileges. There is more presumed antagonism between the players involved. The same might be said of getting rid of a bad teacher; much easier at the private school. When my wife taught at one of the most prestigious private high schools in the St. Louis area (John Burroughs) the teachers worked on one year contracts. If they didn't want you back, you didn't come back.  That meant they could be dedicated to educational excellence in word and deed as opposed to just word. Public school administrators have a far harder time getting rid of the bad apples in the teaching ranks, too.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2020, 01:19:39 PM »
Several years ago I saw a piece on "60 Minutes" about some of the highest performing public elementary and high schools in the nation. What they had in common was that they were on Army bases. The single most important factor identified in helping these school succeed was that in these schools the bosses of the parents could and did demand parental involvement in their children's schooling. That parental involvement made a significant difference.


Typically, parochial school parents also have a greater involvement in their children's school. Parents have an investment in the school.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2020, 01:20:22 PM »
The point Beloved Spouse was making, Pastor Bohler, is that you, in your church-run school, can simply say "out!" and the miscreant or bad dude or dudette is out.
If you don't do that for risk of offending a big donor to the church or the council member who votes on your salary, that's your problem. You could do it, along with your parish school board, if you have one. There is no civil law, no complex set of regulations established by state and local politicians, which governs what must happen to permanently expel a student.
Agreed. It isn't easy, but it is possible. Even if nobody is removed, just in terms of the educational environment school that is a privilege is not the same thing as school that is a right. Once the government says people are owed daycare with hot meals and supervision for their children regardless of whether they try in class, regardless of what a negative social presence they are, etc. then many parents are going to find a different place for their children to learn even if it means home schooling. Then it spirals. A disproportionate number of those who exit are higher performing kids from stable, education-minded households, which leaves the bad apples as a still small but higher percentage of the student body in public schools. When that reaches a critical mass, deviant behavior has to be normalized, standards have to change, etc. and the spiral continues.

If public schools were set free to be about educating anyone who was willing and able to be educated rather than comprehensively socializing the next generation, they would be drastically better off.


The way many people have behaved at (or after) peaceful protest rallies, it seems to me that the proper socialization has not happened too well among segments of our population. The same could be said about the way we see some "Christians" acting. Their socialization into the way of Christ is lacking.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Public school funding and education "in loco parentis."
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2020, 01:23:28 PM »
The point Beloved Spouse was making, Pastor Bohler, is that you, in your church-run school, can simply say "out!" and the miscreant or bad dude or dudette is out.
If you don't do that for risk of offending a big donor to the church or the council member who votes on your salary, that's your problem. You could do it, along with your parish school board, if you have one. There is no civil law, no complex set of regulations established by state and local politicians, which governs what must happen to permanently expel a student.
Agreed. It isn't easy, but it is possible. Even if nobody is removed, just in terms of the educational environment school that is a privilege is not the same thing as school that is a right. Once the government says people are owed daycare with hot meals and supervision for their children regardless of whether they try in class, regardless of what a negative social presence they are, etc. then many parents are going to find a different place for their children to learn even if it means home schooling. Then it spirals. A disproportionate number of those who exit are higher performing kids from stable, education-minded households, which leaves the bad apples as a still small but higher percentage of the student body in public schools. When that reaches a critical mass, deviant behavior has to be normalized, standards have to change, etc. and the spiral continues.

If public schools were set free to be about educating anyone who was willing and able to be educated rather than comprehensively socializing the next generation, they would be drastically better off.


The way many people have behaved at (or after) peaceful protest rallies, it seems to me that the proper socialization has not happened too well among segments of our population. The same could be said about the way we see some "Christians" acting. Their socialization into the way of Christ is lacking.
Not at our parochial school. But of course, when people are encouraged by a substantial number of mainstream voices to think their violence is justified, that too, is part of the poison in the culture.