Author Topic: Lutheran Forum  (Read 3925 times)

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2020, 09:53:23 AM »
Maybe another example of the problems with anonymity. Some here know who the anonymous ones really are. Others don’t, so we have to guess or suspect. In many situations, that destroys the possibility of fair and honest conversation.

Just to be clear, Rev. Austin, I did not know the identity of gan ainm until I received the email from him yesterday afternoon/evening.  I knew him only from what he had written here, just as I only know you from what you have written here. 

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2020, 09:55:20 AM »
But do you know now, in real world terms, who the person is who is using that particular nom de guerre.?
I think some people here, Or people who were here, do know that.
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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2020, 10:16:41 AM »
Maybe another example of the problems with anonymity. Some here know who the anonymous ones really are. Others don’t, so we have to guess or suspect. In many situations, that destroys the possibility of fair and honest conversation.

Well, you should know all about "the problems with anonymity." I mean, you keep giving us links to the newspaper that published the op-ed on resistance in the Trump White House by "Anonymous," a Senior Administration Official. Of course, that op-ed opened the door for this Senior Admin Official to write and publish a book on the same topic that was a New York Times bestseller.

After all, we were told that the Times knew who this person was. They would never call someone a senior official that wasn't high up. It might be John Huntsman, Nikki Haley, some cabinet official, or maybe even Mike Pence!

It turned out to be...Miles Taylor. Wow. How much more senior can you get than a 30 year old policy advisor in the DHS?

Then, last month, you chortled about the Atlantic's article on Trump at the WWI remembrance, all based on anonymous sources. Well, we now know the level of those sources.

So, having you carp about anonymity is pretty funny.

Now I know why you said you are a funny guy. You really are.
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James S. Rustad

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2020, 11:31:42 AM »
But do you know now, in real world terms, who the person is who is using that particular nom de guerre.?
I think some people here, Or people who were here, do know that.

Some of us still do not know who gan ainm is offline and do not care.  I do care that yet another voice on this forum has been hounded into silence.

Please stop.

Mark Brown

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2020, 05:56:26 PM »
Honestly, when I saw the full slate of WHITE MALE RACIST! articles, and especially the note from the editor that we 👏 must 👏 spend 👏 more 👏 time 👏 on 👏 this 👏 burning 👏 issue (if they don't come through the spaces are the ubiquitous hand clap emojis), I let out a whimper of despair.

The entire theological game of trying to push off a warmed over Liberation Theology which was always Marxism in Christian drag is tiring.  To try and jump from a Pauline "In Christ" to "Christ is found wherever you find oppressed bodies" to "if you were truly Christian you must support BLM, you only earn justification through being an ally of the oppressed" is reading the gospel upside down and backwards.  Which is no gospel at all.  It strips out the transcendent.  It removes the teaching the the real offense of sin is against God.  And it sets up unending wars over who is in persona Christi (the intersectional pokemon points pyramid).

What I appreciated Lutheran Forum for was that it managed to be theologically intelligent while avoiding both the traps of "we are so smart, see our Latin phrases, 3000 obscure footnotes, and topics that only 5 people care about" and "everybody who is important is talking about this intellectual in-group signal".   It looks like Lutheran Forum is saying "that ditch looks nice" and turning the wheel hard port.   

But other than that, great issue!

Pastor Brown, are we talking about the same issue of Lutheran Forum?   Please clarify where you read anything in the latest Lutheran Forum that was "warmed over Liberation Theology which was always Marxism in Christian drag."

Please explain the sentence, "It (the alleged striping out of the transcendent) removes the teaching the the real offense of sin is against God. And it sets up unending wars over who is in persona Christi (the intersectional pokeman points pyramid)."

How do you define St. Paul's understanding of what it  means to be "In Christ?"  I do not understand where and by whom the
"unending wars over who is in persona Christ" is being fought.

Marie Meyer

The paragraph that ends, "He embraced his pioneering role in a new theological movement and dedicated himself to finding the right voice with which he could call Black Liberation Theology into existence. (pg.4)"  That paragraph captures the entire project.  It deftly sees the problem of the ditch on the right  (written for 5 people) while yanking the wheel to the ditch on the left - liberation theology.  Which the academy has multiplied to unending identity blocks of X Liberation Theology.  From its start right until now the entire project has been about synthesizing Marxists structures with the Gospel.  Primarily identifying the group as the correct unit of focus and not the individual heart.  In the next editorial the section at the end of page 7 through early page 8 we have exactly that reliance upon identifying group economics and group oppressors and demanding group solutions. It is all the poisoned flower of a bad seed, as John Paul 2 noted.  Liberation is a Christian theme, but not alloyed with Marxist or Materialist philosophy.  Here is then Cardinal Ratzinger explaining in depth. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19840806_theology-liberation_en.html

Anyone who has come upon Liberation Theology in the wild would recognize the steps used for the synthesis.  The Pauline philosophy of being "in Christ," which authentic Christianity says comes about by faith and baptism and has nothing to do with anything of us, least of all our race, sex or material status because In Christ there is no Jew or Greek, Male or Female, Slave or Free, the Gospel overcomes these categories, is combined with "finding Christ in the least of these" that creates the current amalgam.  One is only in Christ to the extend that they identify with and are allies of whatever oppressed group we see Christ in.  The current place to find this is of course any argument of Racism/Anti-Racism or the entire academic talk of intersectionalism.  You can cross reference Ibram Kendi, the current popularizer although I can't recommend reading him.  But of course this old sinful world creates lots of people who have been oppressed.  So there must be some method to understand which oppression trumps which.  And that is the role of intersectionalism.  All of this done at a group level.  For example Kamala Harris, the daughter of two Ph.D.'s, or take Barack Obama, the son of a Ph.D. and a CIA supported African Radical who attended private schools in HI, are both Oppressed.  While the white trash son born in Southern Illinois who raised himself in a dilapidated trailer has White Privilege. And if that White Trash Son wished to be Justified, he must be Anti-racist, which means admitting his guilt and bowing to the Intersectional Tower of Babel.
 
This entire theme runs through Stanek's entire "Restorative Justice" argument but found most clearly in the "the only real way for racial injustice to be amended...is for White Americans to push it across the finish line...we can right the wrongs committed against Black Americans by restoring what has been stolen."  Honestly, that is absolute trash.  One cannot buy their justification.  It is given freely.  And the more one stokes divisions based on sins of the past, the more hotly those divisions burn.  All the more so if the injustice is large and real.  In the City of Man those grievances are rarely settled.  It is in the City of God, by the power of Christ to subdue all things to himself, that we receive that resurrection body that is worth more than this entire life.  An individual man - say Zacchaeus or another saint - may occasionally set out to restore 4x.  But to make individual sainthood the province and demand of the City of Man confuses the Kingdoms and rushes the eschaton.

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2020, 11:35:24 AM »
Honestly, when I saw the full slate of WHITE MALE RACIST! articles, and especially the note from the editor that we 👏 must 👏 spend 👏 more 👏 time 👏 on 👏 this 👏 burning 👏 issue (if they don't come through the spaces are the ubiquitous hand clap emojis), I let out a whimper of despair.

The entire theological game of trying to push off a warmed over Liberation Theology which was always Marxism in Christian drag is tiring.  To try and jump from a Pauline "In Christ" to "Christ is found wherever you find oppressed bodies" to "if you were truly Christian you must support BLM, you only earn justification through being an ally of the oppressed" is reading the gospel upside down and backwards.  Which is no gospel at all.  It strips out the transcendent.  It removes the teaching the the real offense of sin is against God.  And it sets up unending wars over who is in persona Christi (the intersectional pokemon points pyramid).

What I appreciated Lutheran Forum for was that it managed to be theologically intelligent while avoiding both the traps of "we are so smart, see our Latin phrases, 3000 obscure footnotes, and topics that only 5 people care about" and "everybody who is important is talking about this intellectual in-group signal".   It looks like Lutheran Forum is saying "that ditch looks nice" and turning the wheel hard port.   

But other than that, great issue!

Pastor Brown, are we talking about the same issue of Lutheran Forum?   Please clarify where you read anything in the latest Lutheran Forum that was "warmed over Liberation Theology which was always Marxism in Christian drag."

Please explain the sentence, "It (the alleged striping out of the transcendent) removes the teaching the the real offense of sin is against God. And it sets up unending wars over who is in persona Christi (the intersectional pokeman points pyramid)."

How do you define St. Paul's understanding of what it  means to be "In Christ?"  I do not understand where and by whom the
"unending wars over who is in persona Christ" is being fought.

Marie Meyer

The paragraph that ends, "He embraced his pioneering role in a new theological movement and dedicated himself to finding the right voice with which he could call Black Liberation Theology into existence. (pg.4)"  That paragraph captures the entire project.  It deftly sees the problem of the ditch on the right  (written for 5 people) while yanking the wheel to the ditch on the left - liberation theology.  Which the academy has multiplied to unending identity blocks of X Liberation Theology.  From its start right until now the entire project has been about synthesizing Marxists structures with the Gospel.  Primarily identifying the group as the correct unit of focus and not the individual heart.  In the next editorial the section at the end of page 7 through early page 8 we have exactly that reliance upon identifying group economics and group oppressors and demanding group solutions. It is all the poisoned flower of a bad seed, as John Paul 2 noted.  Liberation is a Christian theme, but not alloyed with Marxist or Materialist philosophy.  Here is then Cardinal Ratzinger explaining in depth. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19840806_theology-liberation_en.html

Anyone who has come upon Liberation Theology in the wild would recognize the steps used for the synthesis.  The Pauline philosophy of being "in Christ," which authentic Christianity says comes about by faith and baptism and has nothing to do with anything of us, least of all our race, sex or material status because In Christ there is no Jew or Greek, Male or Female, Slave or Free, the Gospel overcomes these categories, is combined with "finding Christ in the least of these" that creates the current amalgam.  One is only in Christ to the extend that they identify with and are allies of whatever oppressed group we see Christ in.  The current place to find this is of course any argument of Racism/Anti-Racism or the entire academic talk of intersectionalism.  You can cross reference Ibram Kendi, the current popularizer although I can't recommend reading him.  But of course this old sinful world creates lots of people who have been oppressed.  So there must be some method to understand which oppression trumps which.  And that is the role of intersectionalism.  All of this done at a group level.  For example Kamala Harris, the daughter of two Ph.D.'s, or take Barack Obama, the son of a Ph.D. and a CIA supported African Radical who attended private schools in HI, are both Oppressed.  While the white trash son born in Southern Illinois who raised himself in a dilapidated trailer has White Privilege. And if that White Trash Son wished to be Justified, he must be Anti-racist, which means admitting his guilt and bowing to the Intersectional Tower of Babel.
 
This entire theme runs through Stanek's entire "Restorative Justice" argument but found most clearly in the "the only real way for racial injustice to be amended...is for White Americans to push it across the finish line...we can right the wrongs committed against Black Americans by restoring what has been stolen."  Honestly, that is absolute trash.  One cannot buy their justification.  It is given freely.  And the more one stokes divisions based on sins of the past, the more hotly those divisions burn.  All the more so if the injustice is large and real.  In the City of Man those grievances are rarely settled.  It is in the City of God, by the power of Christ to subdue all things to himself, that we receive that resurrection body that is worth more than this entire life.  An individual man - say Zacchaeus or another saint - may occasionally set out to restore 4x.  But to make individual sainthood the province and demand of the City of Man confuses the Kingdoms and rushes the eschaton.

What's with this "synthesizing Marxist structures with the Gospel?"   Is this another attempt to claim that Christians who, as citizens of the Kingdom of the Right speak up for social justice, have bought in to the Marxist world view of seeing evil, not in the individual heart , but in systems that are oppressive?

Within the Kingdom of God, change can and does take place by the power of the Holy Spirit working in individuals who ARE the One Body of Christ.. The Old Testament and St. Paul refer to the circumcision of the heart.  The foreskin of the heart must be cut away by the sword of the Law. The OT also refers to the veil of the heart which must be removed. When St. Paul refers to the heart being enlightened it is a reference to the baptized seeing the Living Christ who has joined Himself to all the many men and women who are His One Holy Body...to all the men and women who are His Beloved Bride... to all whom Christ has joined Himself as intimately as a husband joins himself to his wife. This is a mystery beyond the comprehension of natural human reason.

Understanding how God orders the relationship of the Many who are the ONE Body of Christ is foolishness to "the Gentiles."  It is a world view that cannot be understood in the Kingdom of the Left.   

According to the Old and New Testament, we whom God had called to be citizens of the Kingdom of God, know the ONE God whose will it is that all people come to know God as their God and their Father. God the Holy Spirit's works in we who are citizens of the Kingdom of God.  It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we who are"in Christ" receive the heart and mind, spirit and will of God the Son born of a women by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Citizens of the Kingdom of Right, that's us,  know that God also cares for and provides for all citizens of the Kingdom of the Left. Here God works through civil laws and social justice so that all persons regardless of race, nationality or sex have access to all that is good for life here on earth, and that we who know God's will work toward accomplishing that in a way that leads all people to know God's love in Christ...God's will for their life in eternity. 

Once again I urge persons who post here to read the editorial by R.David Nelson in Lutheran Forum. Read it as words written by a brother in Christ.  Before dismissing it as the misguided thoughts of someone who has fallen into the trap of a Marxist ideology that denies the truth of the One True God continued work in the Kingdom of the Left.  Are we not God's workmanship for good in the Kingdom of the Left.

Marie Meyer

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2020, 02:53:21 PM »
Mrs Meyer... Forgive me if this is in error, but you are far more fervent in defending the Marxist BLM movement than you are at condemning the violence they fail to condemn, and the demonic abortion and gay platforms that are front and center in the BLM movement.

Furthermore unless I have missed it, you express no condemnation ... much less reservation that your Alma matter has given a Servant of Christ award to a current leader of this sin endorsing organization.

If my alma matter CUAA has conferred such an award on any one of such a low caliber as the BLM leader, I will equally rebuke their actions.

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2020, 04:43:17 PM »
James, I’m obviously not your pastor. However, as a Christian brother, might I commend committing to memory and much meditation upon our Lord’s command (and promise) to His disciples:

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned; forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Lk 6:37

I honestly believe that, well, He meant that. And He wants us to obey and believe Him.
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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2020, 05:49:57 PM »
I get one present from my parents every two years...a su scription to LF/FL. They don't need to get me any gift, but this makes them content. I rarely read LF. I just don't find it that interesting.  I look at the table of contents to see if I recognize any names. If I do, then I scan the article. I do look forward to FL, because that is more interesting. (I recognize that this may say something about my attention span.) But I look forward to reading what Richard and Peter write.

FL is good.
LF has not much to offer.

The mobbing issue was tremendously disappointing. I know ganga ainm personally and the lack of journalistic integrity was, even for something like LF, was rotten.

Jeremy
I think it is quite a good journal. It was at its best under Sarah Hinlicky's editorship. It seemed to be staying within the bounds of orthodoxy while reaching out to other Lutherans and Christians outside the American evangelical Catholic fold (in contrast to Paul Sauer, Ronald Bagnal (sp.) Leonard Klein, and Paul Hinlicky, however venerable these churchman were/are). My verdict is not in on Nelson yet, though he seems closer to Sarah H. in editing under a broad orthodoxy, even if he is bringing in a more political element. It's not always going to please hard-line evangelical catholics (to the extent they haven't swam the Tiber or Bosphorous yet) or the LCMS conservatives.  But, hey, it's not a church body or a doctrinal statement the ALPB is making you sign or join; why not subscribe, especially during this time of shrinkage of Lutheran institutions and resources? Advertisement ended.

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2020, 06:02:31 PM »
James, I’m obviously not your pastor. However, as a Christian brother, might I commend committing to memory and much meditation upon our Lord’s command (and promise) to His disciples:

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned; forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Lk 6:37

I honestly believe that, well, He meant that. And He wants us to obey and believe Him.
Pastor: Realizing that you are a Bronxville alum, I realize it must be difficult ... but respectfully, I challenged to be proved wrong on my statement ... my statement was a more of a question than a judgment ... I could be wrong in my assumption.

Yes ... I’m bitter that this award still stands ... it is a blemish on our church body for those who know and care.  Years ago one of our Concordias wished to give a similar award to then Illinois Senator and abortion supporter Paul Simon (an LCMS pastor’s son).  Not remembering the particulars (I’ve slept since then🤓) either the board of regents (could have been the board of control days) over ruled the institution’s administration or both were overruled from higher up, but the important thing was that that an LCMS institution did not honor an abortion advocate and supporter!

Princeton has revoked and removed honors from Woodrow Wilson because of concerns about racism.  Can’t we as a church body do the same when a man leads an organization that is clearly supportive of abortion and the gay agenda?

I would gladly accept a clear and concise public renunciation of these 2 agendas ... however in today’s cancel society, it regrettably would probably result in loss of job, death threats and more.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2020, 06:10:10 PM »
I read Matthew’s article, "A Lutheran Case for Reparations," and would agree that there are some biblical examples of reparation, such as Exodus 22:1. However, there is the complicating fact that slavery was legal throughout much of biblical history and various forms of enslavement were also legal in the American Colonies and States from 1607 into the 1900s. Matthew mentions the latter (Lutheran Forum, Summer 2020, p. 8 ) but not the former. If the argument is “follow God’s Law,” one must admit that the same legal code that assigned reparations also allowed forms of slavery. That somewhat complicates the theological argument.

Also, the idea of reparations would have to be considered not only for African Americans but also for other affected groups. The penalties that persons might experience would also have to be considered as there have been very different actions taken by different groups. Here is a list of groups I drew up.

AFFECTED/RELATED GROUPS
Native Americans (From 1492)
Indentured Servants (1607–1900s)
Enslaved African Americans (1619–1880)
Free African Americans (From 1678)
Poor Whites who did not have slaves but were drafted by the Confederacy (1861–65)
Whites who fought for the Union (1861–65)
Whites who fought for the Confederacy (1861–65)
Chinese laborers (1863–69)
People of any race who owned slaves
People of any race who did not own slaves
Immigrants who came after 1880
Japanese who experienced internment (1942–45)

The list above points out issues of justice. For example, my great grandfather’s family did not arrive in the U.S. until after 1900. They never owned slaves or indentured servants. They started their time in the U.S. as day laborers—hardly a privileged existence. They settled in the north where segregation did not exist. How should their descendants pay reparations? Should they pay the same reparations as a family that had indentured servants and slaves at Jamestown from 1607 until 1865? Where would be the justice in treating such different white persons the same way?

Perhaps the worst proposal might be to penalize all whites to pay out to all African Americans. I can’t think of a better way to further divide the country and create a very dangerous situation. (And what would you do with/for bi-racial families!) I want to say to Matthew, “Please don’t tell me that is what you intend.”

On the other hand, Native American institutions currently receive some tax breaks because of the history of U.S. relations to Native Americans. This is a form of reparation that currently exists, is tolerated, and perhaps even largely unnoticed by Americans.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2020, 06:46:48 PM »
The Japanese-Americans interned during World War II did receive reparations, although I think individual amounts may have been comparatively modest.
The Civil Liberties Act was signed by President Reagn in 1988, compensating more than 100,000 people of Japanese descent who were incarcerated. Each surviving victim got $20,000, and the total cost ran more than $1.6 billion in dollars that would be nearly twice that today.
Japanese-Americans had lobbied more than 10 years seeking an apology and the reparations. The payments were made, the act said, because the unjust incarcerations were due to "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership."

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2020, 07:15:13 PM »
According to an Inflation Calculator ....

Quote

The U.S. dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 2.49% per year during this period, causing the real value of a dollar to decrease. In other words, $100 in 1988 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $220.02 in 2020, a difference of $120.02 over 32 years.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1988

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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2020, 07:35:18 PM »
The Japanese-Americans interned during World War II did receive reparations, although I think individual amounts may have been comparatively modest.
The Civil Liberties Act was signed by President Reagn in 1988, compensating more than 100,000 people of Japanese descent who were incarcerated. Each surviving victim got $20,000, and the total cost ran more than $1.6 billion in dollars that would be nearly twice that today.
Japanese-Americans had lobbied more than 10 years seeking an apology and the reparations. The payments were made, the act said, because the unjust incarcerations were due to "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership."

.

This is a helpful, concrete example regarding reparations, which shows how it can happen but, I would say, also shows some of the problems. The tax dollars that paid for those reparations were drawn in part from the descendants of formers slaves. That feels strange. Other disadvantaged persons might rightly scratch their heads.
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Re: Lutheran Forum
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2020, 08:16:55 PM »
The Japanese-Americans interned during World War II did receive reparations, although I think individual amounts may have been comparatively modest.
The Civil Liberties Act was signed by President Reagn in 1988, compensating more than 100,000 people of Japanese descent who were incarcerated. Each surviving victim got $20,000, and the total cost ran more than $1.6 billion in dollars that would be nearly twice that today.
Japanese-Americans had lobbied more than 10 years seeking an apology and the reparations. The payments were made, the act said, because the unjust incarcerations were due to "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership."
This is a helpful, concrete example regarding reparations, which shows how it can happen but, I would say, also shows some of the problems. The tax dollars that paid for those reparations were drawn in part from the descendants of formers slaves. That feels strange. Other disadvantaged persons might rightly scratch their heads.
Rev E. There is a great difference ... The WWII transgressions were relatively recent.  My ancestors were citizens at the time ... so there was a case for responsibility.

My earliest ancestors arrived after the civil war ... this no reasonable case that their descendants are responsible for any reparations.

An interesting aside ... Sometime ago my retired pastor spoke with the pastor of the congregation where I am currently a member ... And commented that the descendants of slaves should thank God on bended knee that their ancestors (including my pastor's ancestors) were brought to this country. While there was little discussion on that comment, my retired pastor took to be that he agreed ... but probably wouldn't speak in public on those terms.  My retired pastor has known this pastor since the 80's ... so I trust his judgement.

Yes ... I too am thankful God that my ancestors came to the United States.  Regrettably little is known about these ancestors as family apparently didn't think it proper to dwell on the past.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 02:09:28 AM by James »