Author Topic: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions  (Read 2699 times)

John_Hannah

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5016
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2020, 09:56:23 AM »
Priests can marry. Under certain circumstances, Roman Catholic priests can be married. But you know that. And you know that certain things are matters of church discipline, where those wishing to be in the church vocation voluntarily give up some of their rights the sake of their vocation.

The only circumstance for married priests that I was aware of is when a married minister from another church body is ordained in the RCC. That is a tiny number of priests. Are there other exceptions?


Yes, there are. Uniate Rite Catholics (Eastern Orthodox groups which have pledged loyalty to the Bishop of Rome). 

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Weedon

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10997
    • View Profile
    • My Blog
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2020, 10:08:13 AM »
I believe Rome expresses the matter like this: it is a discipline of the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholics, using the Eastern rite, are permitted the Eastern discipline of marriage for the priests (I believe, only before ordination). There is also, as indicated, economia practiced toward pastors of various other confessions that convert to Rome. The reading today in Treasury for the Book of Concord, had me in Apology XXIII: Sacerdotal Marriage.

I found these statements of particular interest:

This love of one sex for the other is truly a divine ordinance. (Ap XXIII:7)

The Jurists have said wisely and correctly that the union of man and woman is by natural right. Now, since natural right is unchangeable, the right to contract marriage must always remain. (Ap XXIII:9)

Natural right is really divine right, because it is an ordinance divinely stamped on nature.... As we said, we are not talking about sinful lust but about the desire which is called “natural love,” which lust did not remove from nature but only inflamed. (Ap XXIII:12, 13)

Paul says (1 Cor. 7:2), “Because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife.” This is an express command, directed to anyone not suited to celibacy.... Paul’s command...binds all those who are not truly continent. It is up to each man’s conscience to decide this matter. (Ap XXIII: 14, 17)
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
Catechist on LPR Podcast: The Word of the Lord Endures Forever
A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

+Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum

Julio

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 285
  • Still awaiting the Certified Election Results!
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2020, 10:12:38 AM »
Priests can marry. Under certain circumstances, Roman Catholic priests can be married. But you know that. And you know that certain things are matters of church discipline, where those wishing to be in the church vocation voluntarily give up some of their rights the sake of their vocation.
The only circumstance for married priests that I was aware of is when a married minister from another church body is ordained in the RCC. That is a tiny number of priests. Are there other exceptions?
Yes, there are. Uniate Rite Catholics (Eastern Orthodox groups which have pledged loyalty to the Bishop of Rome). 

Peace, JOHN
So the RCC allows an exception in deference to EO belief and practice.

By in large, the RCC prohibits the marriage of RCC priests once they have made their vows. These few and far between anomalies do not negate the stated beliefs and practices of the RCC

John_Hannah

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5016
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2020, 10:18:51 AM »

I believe Rome expresses the matter like this: it is a discipline of the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholics, using the Eastern rite, are permitted the Eastern discipline of marriage for the priests (I believe, only before ordination).


That is correct. Marriage must take place before ordination. That is true also for non Latin Orthodox. Allowance for marriage is not universal for Uniate Rite Catholics. For example the Ukranians may not.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Julio

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 285
  • Still awaiting the Certified Election Results!
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2020, 10:25:18 AM »

I believe Rome expresses the matter like this: it is a discipline of the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholics, using the Eastern rite, are permitted the Eastern discipline of marriage for the priests (I believe, only before ordination).
That is correct. Marriage must take place before ordination. That is true also for non Latin Orthodox. Allowance for marriage is not universal for Uniate Rite Catholics. For example the Ukranians may not.

Peace, JOHN
So marriage is allowed as a ‘pre existing condition’ ... allowed because it would be a violation of marital vows to terminate the marriage because a man became a priest.

Coach-Rev

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
  • Rev. Jeff Cottingham, STS
    • View Profile
    • Trinity Lutheran Church
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2020, 10:43:27 AM »
You do not have to “see the point” because it does not affect you.
As for a “stepping stone to force others,” really? How are you being forced concerning marriage? You do not have to call what happens between “them” marriage. You do not have to have anything to do with them.

Unless you are a baker who is forced by the courts to bake a cake for something they object to on religious and moral grounds...
Unless you are a florist who is forced by the state to provide flowers for a ceremony you object to on religious and moral grounds....
Unless you are a fire chief who shared his views with a select group of firefighters, but was fired for doing so despite his own personal religious convictions...
Unless you are a congregation of the ELCA that disagrees with the 2009 actions, but only receives gay or lesbian candidates for the office of pastor that violate the church's position (yes, it has happened many times)...
and coming soon to a church near you (if things keep going the way they are in this country), unless you are  a church that is forced to perform gay weddings by the state...

Those with ears to hear, let them hear (and see) just how false the quoted statement really is.
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln

blog:  http://coach-rev.blogspot.com/
photography:  https://jeffcottingham.smugmug.com/

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 15976
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2020, 10:52:03 AM »
The only reason to have a license in the first place is to FORCE people to recognize a certain status. If you consider yourself an acceptable good driver it doesn't matter. It matters whether the state considers you good enough to give a driver's license to. Same with any kind of license. It isn't what you say about yourself, it is what the society says about you. And everyone in society has to recognize it. If someone is licensed to own a gun, I am forced to recognize that license whether I think they should have a gun or not; I can't insist they not carry one around me in public places.

So with civil unions. They don't change anyone's relationship. They change how everyone else in society as a whole is required to treat that relationship.

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2020, 11:02:10 AM »

I believe Rome expresses the matter like this: it is a discipline of the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholics, using the Eastern rite, are permitted the Eastern discipline of marriage for the priests (I believe, only before ordination).


That is correct. Marriage must take place before ordination. That is true also for non Latin Orthodox. Allowance for marriage is not universal for Uniate Rite Catholics. For example the Ukranians may not.

Peace, JOHN


Doesn’t this rule (prohibiting marriage after ordination) also apply to deacons? 

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12284
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2020, 11:09:13 AM »
Pastor Cottingham’s expected response has virtually nothing to do with the legality of same-sex marriage. It has to do with discrimination and equality under the law. But we’re not going down that old rugged road again I hope.
If two gay people are married, you do not have to recognize their “marriage,” because you do not consider their relationship a marriage. However you do have to recognize that under the civil law they have a certain standing.
And civil society has the right to determine that those people have a certain legal relationship and to say how how those couples are treated.
I once knew an 88-year-old woman who, by any logical measurement, should not have been behind the wheel of the car. But the state gave her a driver’s license.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Missing NY/NJ and trips to Europe. I despise Daylight Savings Time which serves no purpose, disrupts my quotidian body clock and (I am reliably told) severely troubles cows and other huggable farm animals.

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3524
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2020, 11:16:01 AM »
The only reason to have a license in the first place is to FORCE people to recognize a certain status. If you consider yourself an acceptable good driver it doesn't matter. It matters whether the state considers you good enough to give a driver's license to. Same with any kind of license. It isn't what you say about yourself, it is what the society says about you. And everyone in society has to recognize it. If someone is licensed to own a gun, I am forced to recognize that license whether I think they should have a gun or not; I can't insist they not carry one around me in public places.

So with civil unions. They don't change anyone's relationship. They change how everyone else in society as a whole is required to treat that relationship.

Well, not the ONLY reason.  There is also the revenue to the state for licensing fees.

David Garner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 6899
    • View Profile
    • For He is Good and Loves Mankind
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2020, 11:55:36 AM »

I believe Rome expresses the matter like this: it is a discipline of the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholics, using the Eastern rite, are permitted the Eastern discipline of marriage for the priests (I believe, only before ordination).
That is correct. Marriage must take place before ordination. That is true also for non Latin Orthodox. Allowance for marriage is not universal for Uniate Rite Catholics. For example the Ukranians may not.

Peace, JOHN
So marriage is allowed as a ‘pre existing condition’ ... allowed because it would be a violation of marital vows to terminate the marriage because a man became a priest.

Not quite.  It is allowed because the discipline is no marriage after ordination.  In the Orthodox Church, bishops may not marry (some of us feel that may change over time), but priests may remain married if they were married before ordination.  Essentially, it is a discipline, not a dogma, and so the Church is free to change it in either direction, either forbidding married priests (which I do not think will ever happen) or allowing married bishops (which might).

The reason for it, though, has to do with the development of the priesthood over time and, probably more pertinent to this board, the sacramental understanding of both marriage and the priesthood, as well as two practical concerns I'll touch on now -- ability to oversee the Church and concerns for lands held by bishops being transferred to heirs of bishops instead of the Church.  Because I know very little about the history of both concerns, I'll just leave them here and let you all look into it as you will.  I will also say celibacy carries with it another practical issue -- economics.  Put simply, it is hard to support a priest and his family on what most parishes can pay.  That, thus far, has not weighed against all the benefits to having married clergy in the Orthodox Church.  I doubt it will.

As to the sacramental understanding, however, the call to the priesthood is considered a "higher" calling.  Not that the priest himself is higher, but rather that the call to Holy Orders is beyond that of matrimony.  It carries with it higher spiritual responsibilities.  Some of these concerns led to the Latin rite practice of having only celibate priests.  Because we share the concerns, but not the discipline, we allow priests to remain married if they already are, but do not allow them to become married once they enter the priesthood.  For the same reason, a married priest who is widowed is not allowed to remarry, nor is his wife allowed to remarry if he predeceases her (because she by virtue of her marriage to him is a part of his priesthood, though she herself is not a priest).  Similarly, a priest who divorces his wife, whether through his fault or hers, is defrocked, since the sacrament of nuptials is then broken.  It would be like renouncing his baptism or disdaining communion.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

mj4

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2020, 11:57:25 AM »
I thought I’d share this video of popular podcaster/youtuber Matt Fradd. He expresses the frustration of traditional Catholics who want the bishops of the church to speak up and teach or clarify what the church believes regarding sexuality. His work to promote the Catholic faith, he believes, is undercut (my term) by the silence or confusing statements of the church leadership. Does this bring back any memories, members or former members of the ELCA?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLXcrrnpNCs

David Garner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 6899
    • View Profile
    • For He is Good and Loves Mankind
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2020, 12:06:14 PM »

I believe Rome expresses the matter like this: it is a discipline of the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholics, using the Eastern rite, are permitted the Eastern discipline of marriage for the priests (I believe, only before ordination).


That is correct. Marriage must take place before ordination. That is true also for non Latin Orthodox. Allowance for marriage is not universal for Uniate Rite Catholics. For example the Ukranians may not.

Peace, JOHN


Doesn’t this rule (prohibiting marriage after ordination) also apply to deacons?

Among us it does.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Randy Bosch

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2020, 12:13:28 PM »
The Roman Catholic Church determined that priests are forbidden to marry through actions taken at the First and Second Lateran councils in 1123 and 1139  (The Economist).  There were a number of reasons and obviously much prior discussion surrounding that issue.  Apparently, some regional church bodies demanded that married priests then must be celibate or somehow abandon their wives -- there is probably someone here who has a handle on the history and can shed ight on it that might share some insights into parts of the contemporary discussion.

John_Hannah

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5016
    • View Profile
Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2020, 12:20:22 PM »

I believe Rome expresses the matter like this: it is a discipline of the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholics, using the Eastern rite, are permitted the Eastern discipline of marriage for the priests (I believe, only before ordination).


That is correct. Marriage must take place before ordination. That is true also for non Latin Orthodox. Allowance for marriage is not universal for Uniate Rite Catholics. For example the Ukranians may not.

Peace, JOHN


Doesn’t this rule (prohibiting marriage after ordination) also apply to deacons?

Yes, I believe so.
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS