Author Topic: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions  (Read 2749 times)

Mike Gehlhausen

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Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« on: October 21, 2020, 01:26:26 PM »
A Politico article reports comments from Pope Francis backing same-sex civil unions.

https://www.politico.eu/article/pope-francis-backs-same-sex-civil-unions/

I do not know how to react to this actually.  Homosexuality is no more or less a sin than any other sin.  Those tempted by that sin must struggle with it as we struggle with all other sins, and they should be treated compassionately regarding that struggle.  The forgiveness of Christ is available to all.

This seems affirming of homosexuality however.  I honestly do not know if this is a significant change in the Pope's attitude, or I just have been unaware.

What do others here think?

readselerttoo

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2020, 02:07:40 PM »
The Pope gets it right.  In general I think the church or any church for that matter should get out of the “business” of performing marriages, period.  It would place the issue of natural order back into where it belongs and in this case with the State.

readselerttoo

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2020, 02:33:25 PM »
A Politico article reports comments from Pope Francis backing same-sex civil unions.

https://www.politico.eu/article/pope-francis-backs-same-sex-civil-unions/

I do not know how to react to this actually.  Homosexuality is no more or less a sin than any other sin.  Those tempted by that sin must struggle with it as we struggle with all other sins, and they should be treated compassionately regarding that struggle.  The forgiveness of Christ is available to all.

This seems affirming of homosexuality however.  I honestly do not know if this is a significant change in the Pope's attitude, or I just have been unaware.

What do others here think?

I don’t believe the Pope affirms homosexuality or approves same-sex coupling as if it fell under the issue of a sacrament or even a natural order as an estate per se.  The civil authorities by themselves can and do create a space in which legal partnership can develop.  Think of legal liability corporations set up through the civil order.  Those do not possess any divine commitment to operate as an estate issue however.  LLPs are created with legal standing before the public eye with benefits and liabilities.  The natural order of the estate of marriage is a configuration created by God in which only thus man and this woman can occupy.  There is no natural order of estate for same-sex couples.  Although a civil union for it can be established under having no divine recognition that it is an order or estate in itself.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 02:38:21 PM by readselerttoo »

Weedon

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2020, 03:49:42 PM »
George,

I would say that the Church’s business is in blessing marriages, through which the “great mystery” of Christ and His bride, the Church, may be revealed. She prays that the taking of this “earthly element” - so to speak - into Christ, will be used of the Triune God to manifest the Gospel itself through the Bridegroom’s laying down His life for His beloved, and the bride’s joyful submission to her Bridegroom. And I love that in the classic marriage rite of our Church from Martin Luther, the closing prayer isn’t just for the bride and groom. Rather:

O God, who hast created man and woman and hast ordained them for the married estate, hast blessed them with fruits of the womb, and hast thereby typified the sacramental union of thy dear Son, the Lord Jesus, and the church, his bride: We beseech thy groundless goodness and mercy that thou wouldst not permit this thy creation, ordinance, and blessing to be disturbed or destroyed, but graciously preserve the same; through Jesus Christ, our Lord. AE 51:115.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 04:01:33 PM by Weedon »
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James_Gale

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2020, 04:19:42 PM »
The Pope gets it right.  In general I think the church or any church for that matter should get out of the “business” of performing marriages, period.  It would place the issue of natural order back into where it belongs and in this case with the State.


Whether or not the pope’s comments “get it right,” I am confident that he would dissent from the rest of your post; it may well be consistent with the Lutheran understanding of marriage but strikes me as very much inconsistent with the RC treatment of marriage as a sacrament.

Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2020, 04:58:59 PM »
Before we Lutherans affirmed same-sex marriage within the church, or at least some of us did, we favored civil laws or regulations that would allow same-sex couples the privileges and benefits of marriage. Seems to me that’s what The pope is doing 
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Pr. Terry Culler

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2020, 05:30:55 PM »
There have been stories over the years of a high-level Vatican cabal of homosexuals.  Pope Francis was accused of being under their influence.  I have no idea if that is true or not, but it seems a very strange thing for the Pope, head of a Church that is very strong in parts of Africa, Latin America and Asia to do.  Of course, he's also playing footsy with the Chicoms as they persecute our brothers and sisters.  It all makes me think he is out of his depth.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2020, 06:25:16 PM »
Why would there  have to be a high-level cabal of anything behind this? Maybe the pope just thinks that people who don’t accept the Catholic teaching on marriage should still have the right to form a family under civil law.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Missing NY/NJ and trips to Europe. I despise Daylight Savings Time which serves no purpose, disrupts my quotidian body clock and (I am reliably told) severely troubles cows and other huggable farm animals.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2020, 06:56:36 PM »
Time will tell where this goes. Approving of civil unions for homosexuals is not the same as approving of same-sex marriage much less bringing that into the church.
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Richard Johnson

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2020, 06:58:23 PM »
There have been stories over the years of a high-level Vatican cabal of homosexuals.  Pope Francis was accused of being under their influence.  I have no idea if that is true or not,

Then why would you post it?
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2020, 07:14:18 PM »
What exactly is the point of civil unions? Why couldn't three people have a civil union? Why couldn't a brother and sister? We don't issue licenses for best friends. Why issue licenses for homosexual lovers?

The idea that the state recognized marriages stemmed from the obvious fact that the state had an interest in making sure children were born into stable environments. Moreover, the traditional family usually created an economic dependent out of the woman, who needed the larger society to hold her husband accountable to provide for her and the children lest he choose to ditch them. None of those things apply to gay couples. Why should the state take an interest in who lives with whom?

If the state simply stopped recognizing marriage at all, the only people who would suffer would be traditional families. They are the people around whom the whole concept of legally recognized marriage was developed, and the only ones who actually need it.

Pr. Terry Culler

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2020, 08:10:15 PM »
There have been stories over the years of a high-level Vatican cabal of homosexuals.  Pope Francis was accused of being under their influence.  I have no idea if that is true or not,

Then why would you post it?


well the Revs. Austin and Stoffregan can post all sorts of wild speculations, why can't I?  Certainly I have no way of knowing what the internal activities of the RCC might be, but some of the people who have made such charges possibly do so, including the former papal envoy to the US
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readselerttoo

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2020, 08:22:04 PM »
The civil realm can do what it wants.  Humans can make civil unions happen.  Doesn’t mean that God recognizes or blesses these unions.  There is no estate as in estate of marriage in the civil union process.  There just isn’t.  We can fool around with jargon all day and civil unions created by the State don’t make marriages and don’t make estates.  The estate of marriage is preserved for this man and this woman through God’s creative and preserving activity. 

And yes to the matter of the church blessing the estate following marriage through the State.   This should put to rest any suggestion that marriage could be a sacrament.  Much of Europe outside the RC communion has done this in forever, it seems.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 08:55:42 PM by readselerttoo »

RogerMartim

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2020, 08:25:12 PM »
Raymond Arroyo over at EWTN must be pulling his hair out tonight.

DCharlton

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Re: Pope Backs Same-Sex Civil Unions
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2020, 08:26:30 PM »
I would say that the Church’s business is in blessing marriages, through which the “great mystery” of Christ and His bride, the Church, may be revealed.

This is the crucial issue for me these days.  It is the question of which kind of union I am authorized to bless as a Lutheran pastor.  I am authorized to bless the marriage of a man a woman by Scripture itself.  In fact, when I bless a marriage I am repeated the blessing that God has already given in His Word.  On the other hand, if there is not a word of God that sanctifies same sex unions, how can I as a pastor bless such a union?  As Luther says in his Confession concerning Christ’s Supper:

For these three religious institutions or orders are found in God’s Word and commandment; and whatever is contained in God’s Word must be holy, for God’s Word is holy and sanctifies everything connected with it and involved in it.  (LW 37:365)
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