Author Topic: Solidarity and Unity  (Read 2460 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2020, 01:48:50 AM »
Skin color makes a difference in the way people are treated. I heard this from a Mexican American. He is light-skinned. His brother is dark-skinned. They have been treated differently by the Border Patrol. Skin color is often connected to race, but I consider the amount of melanin a more obvious distinction than race. A dark-skinned person may have ancestors from Africa, or could be a dark-skinned Latino or a Native American or Punjabi. There are also light-skinned Africans.
Thread Drift!!!!

Rev Speckhard said nothing about skin color making a difference in the way people are treated.

If you wish to discuss this topic, please start a new thread on skin color differences. Then you can discuss melanin to your hearts content.


The immediate thread is about the "Black Caucus." What race is "black"?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Julio

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2020, 08:26:25 AM »
Skin color makes a difference in the way people are treated. I heard this from a Mexican American. He is light-skinned. His brother is dark-skinned. They have been treated differently by the Border Patrol. Skin color is often connected to race, but I consider the amount of melanin a more obvious distinction than race. A dark-skinned person may have ancestors from Africa, or could be a dark-skinned Latino or a Native American or Punjabi. There are also light-skinned Africans.
Thread Drift!!!!Rev Speckhard said nothing about skin color making a difference in the way people are treated. If you wish to discuss this topic, please start a new thread on skin color differences. Then you can discuss melanin to your hearts content.
The immediate thread is about the "Black Caucus." What race is "black"?
Risking Reverend Johnson’s differential treatment… Thank you for acknowledging your thread drift!

As far as your question what race is black, if the black caucus has not already defined ‘black’, it is their responsibility to do so. 

If you do not know the answer to your question, you are unable to intelligently opine on this thread.

[/quote]

mariemeyer

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2020, 04:22:12 PM »
Peter writes...

"Does God call black people to group together with other black people? White people with other white people? In both cases, no. If I impute a viewpoint to someone based on their race, I have committed an injustice. If someone asks me to listen to listen to them especially because of their race, that is the same problem."

Marie responds... Please think the above through.  In the history of our country God did call white Americans to group together?  Of course not.  Did they? Most assuredly.  Not only that, white Christians quoted the Bible to say it was God's idea.

What you write above perplexes me?   

Is the Back Clergy Caucus doing you and other white LCMS persons an injustice by asking you to join them in speaking up for reform in the USA or the LCMS?   


Peter:  "Hey, that person is black. Let us pay extra special attention to his voice in a way we wouldn't if he were white."

Marie responds....Are you serious?  Yes, the article in CT blacks were asking us to listen to them.  Why? Because we do not have a clue as to what they have experienced in the past and what persons of their color continue to experience.  Do you hear what they are saying?

They are asking that the group identity that has  been and continues to be imposed on blacks be confronted for the reality that it is be recognized and reformed. 

Peter writes.... "But it is disastrous to do that formally and officially by declaring that people of the same race share some sort of relevant group identity. That falsehood is the problem in the first place."

Marie responds....  Blacks in America do not want to face housing restrictions that keeps them together as a group.  They are asking those of us who do not face legal and cultural realities that keep us whites together to understand how the reality of their past and the present  keeps persons of color separate. 

I still do not understand where in LCMS writing by blacks or whites the idea of solidarity enters the picture.  The question is "What does it take for all the baptized whom God claims as His sons and daughter to see their common identity as His people... to recognize that all persons are God's creation, individuals God claims to claim as His People.

Marie Meyer

Marie Meyer

Just my thoughts as a guy who is mostly a lurker.

When Marie writes, "Please think the above through," she is exclaiming that Peter has written something he did not think about. Tough opening statement to defuse the argument of another person.

Later Marie writes, "Are you serious?" It does not appear that she writes this because she has any confusion about whether Peter writes earnestly or as an act of satire. On one hand she writes this because she finds his statement ridiculous/perplexing. On the other hand, I think she validates Peter's argument when she describes an article that shows the desire for a person to be heard because of the truth of his statements and not because of the color of his skin. Group identities that are imposed that should be reformed have always been a struggle for the oppressed. What is the end goal of this reformation? Can it be unity in the body of Christ? I sure hope so.

Marie questions the place for solidarity in the LCMS picture. If unity and solidarity are not the end goal picture of the LCMS, then of course by all means we should keep reaffirming divisions and cement in conflicts. I want to know the path to this unity that does not involve cementing in divisions that are imposed upon a people for the purpose of conflict and devaluing.

A few thoughts:  The claim that blacks are asking to be heard and treated as a group perplexed me.  The very thing the LCMS Black Clergy Caucus is asking is that within the church they be seen as God sees and regards all whom God claims in Baptism. So also, they ask that they be heard as fellow members of the One Holy Body of Christ. This is about black and white BEING the Living Church to whom Christ joins Himself as intimately as a husband joins himself to his wife in marriage. 

Within our country they urge that LCMS blacks and whites boldly speak up for justice and equality under the Law...that all that belongs to being a citizen of the USA belongs to blacks without regard to the color of their skin. IOW, they call for reform with the LCMS and our country.

I asked Peter to think through the reality that whites first imposed group identity on blacks. Historically,group identity within the USA originated with whites and was perpetuated by whites, not blacks.  I then made reference to how Scripture was for decades used to justify slavery and the separation of blacks and whites.  Here I would suggest the 1991 Fortress Book, Stony the Road We Trod.

For the record, I did not refer to a single article in the October 2020 Christianity Today, but to the editorial by a white editor and four articles written by blacks.  Both the editorial and the articles call attention to blacks and whites working within their churches and beyond for a future where there is true unity among blacks and whites in our church and justice and equality in our country.

Marie Meyer

peter_speckhard

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2020, 07:36:10 PM »
https://quillette.com/2020/10/08/the-prescience-of-shelby-steele/

From this lengthy and fascinating article about Shelby Steele

What passes for anti-racism today accepts the basic premises of white supremacy by injecting melanin with moral meaning. What we need, according to Steele, is a revitalization of individualism in our society—an emphasis on black autonomy as against the historical determinism of the cultural Left, and an American humanism that appreciates our common bonds as citizens over racial and ethnic differences. This means discarding all forms of race essentialism and separatism.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2020, 09:04:14 AM »

Rev Geminn

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2020, 09:17:24 AM »
A shorter but still interesting article.

 https://newdiscourses.com/2020/10/racial-healing-reject-critical-race-theory/

Just to piggyback off of this.  I have come to appreciate James Lindsay for various reasons. It is the entire podcast but this is helpful in understanding where he's coming from. Hilarious and cryptic at times.  https://youtu.be/AZZNvT1vaJg

Peace,
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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2020, 09:40:56 AM »
For the record, I did not refer to a single article in the October 2020 Christianity Today, but to the editorial by a white editor and four articles written by blacks.
How is the thread topic of Solidarity and Unity furthered with this incessant parsing of the skin color/ethnicity of writers?

It would have wrong for me not to join my current congregation simply because the pastor is black ... wouldn’t it be equally wrong to join the congregation simply because the pastor is black?
If necessary, there will be a peaceful transfer of power on Jan 20, 2021.

In the event election fraud is proven in the courts of our country, there will be an inauguration ceremony ... no transfer of power necessary.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2020, 11:32:43 AM »
An observation that I read about heresy has stuck with me. Most heresy originates when a previously under emphasized theological truth is rediscovered and then over emphasized and pushed to an heretical extreme. Jesus is both God and man, however in our thinking, preaching, and writing it is very hard to maintain that balance, typically one aspect, His divinity or His humanity become neglected. Inevitably a reaction occurs whereby the neglected aspect of Jesus' nature is "rediscovered" and now emphasized with typically an overreaction so that the previously neglected aspect becomes the dominate to the detriment of the rest of the truth.


From the little that I have read about Critical Race Theory (CRT), it seems to me to fit this paradigm of heresy. With the dismantling of slavery and a hundred of years later Jim Crow, great strides have been made to reduce the effects of racism in American life. Some may be tempted to declare the war on racism won, racism no longer a problem or an issue, we can maintain the status quo with no further concerns for the reality or effects of racism. That position should, to any observant, thinking person be obviously wrong. This way of thinking about race, as something that is of historical interest only without any currency, over emphasizes the reality of great strides against racism that have been accomplished and under emphasizes the reality of the lingering effects of past racism still to be dealt with and the reality that racism may still be active in certain aspects of American life. The reality of the strides gained against racism becomes the heresy that racism is gone.


But there is the inevitable reaction against the racism is gone heresy, that racism is everywhere and is the dominate characteristic of American life and the defining characteristic of everyone who does think about race and American society as do the anointed prophets of CRT. Instead of seeing race nowhere, they see race everywhere. It has the added benefit of therefore designating any dissent from CRT as the product of racism, and anyone in the class of designated enemies, such as whites, inevitably and irreducibly racist. Anyone even of the oppressed groups who disagrees with CRT do so as complicit with or dominated by racism. Any conclusion other than those arrived at by CRT are the product of racism and therefore illegitimate. CRT also diagnoses current American society, culture, economics, law, and government as irredeemably racist and it all needs to be dismantled. Burn It Down!


It is also a feature of this thinking that the demand is made from both heresies that a choice be made, either one affirms that racism is gone and no longer needs to be considered or ameliorated, or racism is pervasive. The reality is that great strides have been made to dismantle the systemic racism of the past, but the battle against racism and its effects is not over.


Look hard enough and you can usually find what is sought even if it isn't there. If you begins to examine a person's behavior with the assumption that the behavior is governed by racism, one can usually find a way to attribute racist motives to the behavior. The psychoanalytic caution needs to be kept in mind, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."


The reality is that great strides have been
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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mariemeyer

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2020, 12:04:19 PM »
For the record, I did not refer to a single article in the October 2020 Christianity Today, but to the editorial by a white editor and four articles written by blacks.
How is the thread topic of Solidarity and Unity furthered with this incessant parsing of the skin color/ethnicity of writers?

It would have wrong for me not to join my current congregation simply because the pastor is black ... wouldn’t it be equally wrong to join the congregation simply because the pastor is black?

My pastor is black.

marie meyer

James

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2020, 12:39:32 PM »
For the record, I did not refer to a single article in the October 2020 Christianity Today, but to the editorial by a white editor and four articles written by blacks.
How is the thread topic of Solidarity and Unity see furthered with this incessant parsing of the skin color/ethnicity of writers?

It would have wrong for me not to join my current congregation simply because the pastor is black ... wouldn’t it be equally wrong to join the congregation simply because the pastor is black?

My pastor is black.

marie meyer

Well we have something in common😎

But of course, you failed to address the primary question “ How is the thread topic of Solidarity and Unity see furthered with this incessant parsing of the skin color/ethnicity of writers?“

My apologies for not making this clear.
If necessary, there will be a peaceful transfer of power on Jan 20, 2021.

In the event election fraud is proven in the courts of our country, there will be an inauguration ceremony ... no transfer of power necessary.

mariemeyer

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2020, 02:20:49 PM »
Peter's ALBP article states....

"The Marxist worldview, on the other hand, depends on seeing the evil not in the individual but in the system of oppression represented by the individual agent of the ruling power. Thus, it makes sense for people with this worldview to think that anyone who denies ubiquitous, ongoing, systemic racism in America is a racist and part of the system needing to be overthrown. It has to be a pattern. It is has to be systemic. That’s the only way the overhaul of the system can be justified in the absence of any overtly racist policy or law. And make no mistake, it is the whole “system” that needs overthrowing. When you watch race protests, note how often capitalism, private property, patriarchy, and law enforcement in the abstract are treated as the real enemies. Yet, this is the worldview Jones takes for granted when he labels so many Christian racists....

"In the wake of the George Floyd killing and the resulting social turmoil, a group of LCMS clergy is seeking signatures for an online petition labelled A Call for Racial Justice Reform in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. It currently has nearly 7,000 signatures. I have not signed it for two reasons. It includes declaring “an intent to, by God’s grace, dismantle the systems of racism within our congregations, communities, and church body.” I do not believe we have any systems of racism in our congregation or church body. By adopting that terminology, we wrench the conversation onto the foundations of a worldview I do not accept.

More importantly, the petition insists on treating black LCMS clergy as a separate group with a special solidarity that ought to be reinforced in and by the LCMS rather than dissolved." ..

My question, "What terminology used by the LCMS Black Caucus wrenches the conversation from a worldview you do not accept?"

Change has taken place within the LCMS and our nation since the sixties.  Within the LCMS, the change did not happen without the efforts of  white and black pastors and lay persons working together in The Lutheran Human Relations Association, the Black Clergy Caucus and the efforts of black and white pastors in southern districts (Southeastern, Southern, Florida/Georgia). Here change took place within the context of the Gospel... the biblical world view where all the baptized, regardless of their race, belong to the One Holy Body of Christ.  The change is empowered by God the Holy Spirit within persons of all races whom God the Father claims as His children.   God's design for the relationship of black and white in the LCMS is a work in progress.  To grasp the reality of needed change within the LCMS we need to listen to the members of the Black clergy caucus and the black pastors and layman whose story is told in Christianity Today. 

The change that was needed in our country did not happen without legislation.  Laws were required until hearts and minds understood the oneness of humanity.  Here we must listen to fellow citizens whose lives continue to be impacted upon by invisible barriers between black and white in housing, education and health care. 

This in not about calling any one individual as "racist." At the same time, there is no denying the reality that the LCMS has not attained the biblical world view of a community/fellowship where racist attitudes no longer exist. "At it's core, Christianity is about systemic change." (CT editor Daniel Harrell) Work remains to be done within the LCMS.

I also submit that members of the LCMS are called to use their voice for to affirm the unity and equality of all USA citizens, i.e. God's worldview for creation.  Within our nation the issue is not the solidarity of a Marxist or socialist ideology.   It is about recognizing the individual worth of each citizen that is part of the whole, the United States of America.

 "A democratic government requires individual citizens working together as one nation for any common good to have a chance."  (Christianity Today editor in chief, Daniel Harrell)

Marie Meyer



 

James

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Re: Solidarity and Unity
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2020, 02:32:00 PM »
Mrs Meyer .... It is difficult to understand your desire for ‘Solidarity and Unity’ when you are consistently highlighting the differences amongst us.


Please explain this apparent conundrum.  Thank you!
If necessary, there will be a peaceful transfer of power on Jan 20, 2021.

In the event election fraud is proven in the courts of our country, there will be an inauguration ceremony ... no transfer of power necessary.