Author Topic: Romans 13 and Revelation 13  (Read 1000 times)

Randy Bosch

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2020, 07:24:13 PM »
Another useful opinion regarding the subject: https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2020/08/words-signs-reality-christine-norvell.html .   One person's view of Augustine's concern for careful usage, perhaps envisioning what is now often referred to as Semiotics.  See also the work of Umberto Eco - the professor of semiotics (writing novels was his hobby).

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2020, 07:29:44 PM »
Tolle, lege.

https://www.cfnews.org.uk/thou/


The ancient history of scriptures was to put it in the language of the common person (not the scholars). Thus, when Hellenism became the common culture, the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek. Since that was the common language during Jesus' day, that was the language of the New Testament - and not the classical Greek of the scholars, but koine Greek of the common people - "street Greek". Some early Greek scholars noting that the grammar didn't follow well the rules of Classical Greek figured that it must be "God's Greek" - a special use of the Greek language to convey the holy words from God. They were wrong. The Word who becomes human flesh through birth, also comes to us in common language.


When Rome became the cultural force in the world, Latin became the common language. The word "vulgate" for the Latin (re-)translation by Jerome, is related to the word for "vulgar." He was seeking to have God speak to the people in the common (vulgar) language that the people spoke. That was also the thinking behind the King James Version; and even Luther's German Translation. He wanted it to sound like God spoke German, rather a stiff translation of a foreign language. (An American Bible Society book on the Good News Bible quoted Luther on this.)


Perhaps part of our desire not to have a human messiah, some elevated the KJV version to be the actual translation God wanted us to have - and it didn't change for centuries. We developed a kind of special "God-language." (The same happened with Luther's German translation.) We couldn't use just ordinary bread for communion, but special wafers made just for that purpose that neither look nor taste like bread.


I've written elsewhere that the opposite of "holy" is "common" (κοινός), but sometimes we take an almost Gnostic view that "holy" and "sacred" are part of the better, spiritual realm, and the "common" and "ordinary" is part of the (evil?) fleshly, earthly world. The Holy One took on common, ordinary human flesh through the common and ordinary means of birth to live on this earth that the Father had created good.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2020, 07:38:45 PM »
Another useful opinion regarding the subject: https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2020/08/words-signs-reality-christine-norvell.html .   One person's view of Augustine's concern for careful usage, perhaps envisioning what is now often referred to as Semiotics.  See also the work of Umberto Eco - the professor of semiotics (writing novels was his hobby).


I liked this paragraph (boldface added):


And over and over in public forums, men and women of every color and age forget Augustine’s simple truth. Words fail or succeed based on what truth or reality they represent to their audience. We don’t want our words to be “mere noise.” Surely not. Or how will we reconcile the truth of what people say when we don’t understand their meaning, the reality behind their words?


That's what I mean when I've talked about words as metaphors. Words are "mere noise" until they represent "truth or reality" to the hearers.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Weedon

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2020, 07:52:35 PM »
I highly recommend chapter 7 of Schmemann’s Eucharist, in which he deals with the fall of language. The devil cannot create language ( it is God’s creation), but rather than letting it stand, He corrupts it. He injects His lies in a sly manner: he substitutes that to which the vocable was meant to refer and to manifest, to some counterfeit, shifting the term from its proper object. Herein is his nature as liar. And Schmemann notes this cannot be fixed by definitions. “That is why all attempts to reduce the question of words, their content and meaning, to a question of their definition are vain. For in any case, a definition is made up of words, and this means that it does not and cannot escape from its own vicious circle, which enslaves all creation. Therefore the fallen word, like all of the fallen world, requires not definition but salvation, and it awaits this salvation not from itself and not from other words but from the cleansing and revivifying power and grace of God.” (P. 148, 149) The whole chapter reminded me very much of Dr. Nagel’s saying: “If any word is in Christ it is a new creation, the old has past away; the new has come!” Schmemann’s conclusion is that the experience of the of the encounter with Christ as GIFT precedes the words, and the words then and only then can come to be filled with their proper content, content supplied “from above.” In that chapter he particularly applies it to UNITY. And notes the invariable contrast between the Trinitarian Unity from above which is the divine gift the Savior brings us, with the false and opposing unities from below (with implications for the RACE discussion!) as Satanic substitutes for the divinely given gift.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 08:05:37 PM by Weedon »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2020, 08:08:44 PM »
I highly recommend chapter 7 of Schmemann’s Eucharist, in which he deals with the fall of language. The devil cannot create language ( it is God’s creation), but rather than letting it stand, He corrupts it. He injects His lies in a sly manner: he substitutes that to which the vocable was meant to refer and to manifest, to some counterfeit, shifting the term from its proper object. Herein is his nature as liar. And Schmemann notes this cannot be fixed by definitions. “That is why all attempts to reduce the question of words, their content and meaning, to a question of their definition are vain. For in any case, a definition is made up of words, and this means that it does not and cannot escape from its own vicious circle, which enslaves all creation. Therefore the fallen word, like all of the fallen world, requires not definition but salvation, and it awaits this salvation not from itself and not from other words but from the cleansing and revivifying power and grace of God.” (P. 148, 149) The whole chapter reminded me very much of Dr. Nagel’s saying: “If any word is in Christ, the old has past away; the new has come!” Schmemann’s conclusion is that the experience of the of the encounter with Christ as GIFT precedes the words, and the words then and only then can come to be filled with their proper content, content “from above.”

The earliest "definitions" children learn come from pictures of objects or the object themselves, not more words. 🍎apple; 🥕carrot; 🏈football; 🪑chair; etc. Later, the word evokes the picture of the object in our brains.

Would Schmemann consider a pun a creative work of God or a sly trick by the devil?

A pun is not fully developed until it is full groan.


In terms of "unity," that word brings to mind a picture of my mom and dad, my brothers and I all sitting around the dinner table. That happened nearly every night. We didn't always agree, but there was conversation; and nearly always, as I remember, laughter. We were family. Now that we are all 65+ in age, I still consider us united together as one family (even with the in-laws and children) and hundreds of miles apart, and our father gone.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 08:15:25 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Weedon

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2020, 08:11:09 PM »
Brian, I just had to listen to my wife read my granddaughter Amelia Bedelia...
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
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A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2020, 08:19:34 PM »
Brian, I just had to listen to my wife read my granddaughter Amelia Bedelia...


We have no grandchildren, but Wiki filled me in on Amelia Bedelia. Sounds like something I would like. (And perhaps some things I have done.) It shouldn't be called "a hot water heater." If the water is hot, it doesn't need to be heated. It's a "water heater." (There are people in Yuma who turn it off in the summer. The tap water doesn't need to be heated.)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2020, 09:18:12 AM »
Brian, I just had to listen to my wife read my granddaughter Amelia Bedelia...


We have no grandchildren, but Wiki filled me in on Amelia Bedelia. Sounds like something I would like. (And perhaps some things I have done.) It shouldn't be called "a hot water heater." If the water is hot, it doesn't need to be heated. It's a "water heater." (There are people in Yuma who turn it off in the summer. The tap water doesn't need to be heated.)

You didn't read Amelia Bedelia to your own children? She's been around since you were a teenager.
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