Author Topic: Romans 13 and Revelation 13  (Read 1020 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2020, 12:50:36 PM »
The simul runs through creation. So govt is at once God’s good creation and gift for maintenance of justice and order and yet also an arena of demonic perversion and human corruption. And since the fall it will always have features of both and at times and places one side or the other will prevail, but the corruption is never able to wholly wipe out the goodness inherent in its creation by God.


In rereading these posts, I'm not sure that government is necessarily "God's good creation and gift." I'm thinking of God's opposition to the people's desire to have a king in 1 Samuel 8. It would seem that that form of government came from the people, rather than from God. Or, we might say that God gave the people what they wanted. God choose Saul and David to be kings. Then they came from David's line.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

D. Engebretson

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2020, 12:54:48 PM »
The simul runs through creation. So govt is at once God’s good creation and gift for maintenance of justice and order and yet also an arena of demonic perversion and human corruption. And since the fall it will always have features of both and at times and places one side or the other will prevail, but the corruption is never able to wholly wipe out the goodness inherent in its creation by God.


In rereading these posts, I'm not sure that government is necessarily "God's good creation and gift." I'm thinking of God's opposition to the people's desire to have a king in 1 Samuel 8. It would seem that that form of government came from the people, rather than from God. Or, we might say that God gave the people what they wanted. God choose Saul and David to be kings. Then they came from David's line.

Would you say that God works through the Kingdom of the Left, or that He only opposes it?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2020, 12:59:42 PM »
Our catechism lists "good government" among the things we ought to consider the daily bread for which we thank God. That would be really weird if government were not a gift from God.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2020, 01:02:34 PM »
The simul runs through creation. So govt is at once God’s good creation and gift for maintenance of justice and order and yet also an arena of demonic perversion and human corruption. And since the fall it will always have features of both and at times and places one side or the other will prevail, but the corruption is never able to wholly wipe out the goodness inherent in its creation by God.


In rereading these posts, I'm not sure that government is necessarily "God's good creation and gift." I'm thinking of God's opposition to the people's desire to have a king in 1 Samuel 8. It would seem that that form of government came from the people, rather than from God. Or, we might say that God gave the people what they wanted. God choose Saul and David to be kings. Then they came from David's line.

Would you say that God works through the Kingdom of the Left, or that He only opposes it?


Yes. The answer depends on what the Kingdom on the Left is doing. It can be an agent of God, or a "beast" that opposes God's will. However, Revelation is filled with "divine passives," "it was given" is an oft used phrase that implies that God gave the rulers the right and authority to do the evil that they did. It's like God testing the Israelites in the wilderness to see whether or not they would continue to trust God during difficult times.


However, I'm pretty sure that Christians and Jews didn't need to see 6 million Jews and others killed to have their faith tested. I don't believe that God was behind such destruction of life. I also wonder if God was behind the dropping of the atomic bombs on the Japanese. We (the American people) believe that our actions are justified, but does God agree or is it just human hubris? Self-justification?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2020, 01:05:19 PM »
Our catechism lists "good government" among the things we ought to consider the daily bread for which we thank God. That would be really weird if government were not a gift from God.


What should our response be to "bad government"? It also says "good weather." Should we give thanks for "bad weather" that brings destruction and death?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2020, 01:10:09 PM »
Our catechism lists "good government" among the things we ought to consider the daily bread for which we thank God. That would be really weird if government were not a gift from God.


What should our response be to "bad government"?
Your personal response should be to quit voting for the kind of candidates you've been voting for. ::)

James

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2020, 03:12:52 PM »
Our catechism lists "good government" among the things we ought to consider the daily bread for which we thank God. That would be really weird if government were not a gift from God.
What should our response be to "bad government"?
Your personal response should be to quit voting for the kind of candidates you've been voting for. ::)
Perhaps a novel concept for progressives ... open the Bible ... read the Bible ... believe the Bible.  Rev Walther’s family are prime real-time examples ... their trust and faith is in our loving God.

Their faith in “In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you” is quite apparent ... we can only pray for those who doubt and consistantly second guess our loving and living God.
If necessary, there will be a peaceful transfer of power on Jan 20, 2021.

In the event election fraud is proven in the courts of our country, there will be an inauguration ceremony ... no transfer of power necessary.

James

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2020, 03:18:31 PM »
Our catechism lists "good government" among the things we ought to consider the daily bread for which we thank God. That would be really weird if government were not a gift from God.


What should our response be to "bad government"?
Again another novel concept .... 1Tim 2 “ 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
If necessary, there will be a peaceful transfer of power on Jan 20, 2021.

In the event election fraud is proven in the courts of our country, there will be an inauguration ceremony ... no transfer of power necessary.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2020, 04:30:25 PM »
Our catechism lists "good government" among the things we ought to consider the daily bread for which we thank God. That would be really weird if government were not a gift from God.
What should our response be to "bad government"?
Your personal response should be to quit voting for the kind of candidates you've been voting for. ::)
Perhaps a novel concept for progressives ... open the Bible ... read the Bible ... believe the Bible.  Rev Walther’s family are prime real-time examples ... their trust and faith is in our loving God.

Their faith in “In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you” is quite apparent ... we can only pray for those who doubt and consistantly second guess our loving and living God.


I've spent many hours the past few days translating a chapter in Leviticus from the Hebrew and then translating it from the Greek of the Septuagint; then doing some word studies of key words. This is just the first step in my study of the passages.


This is in addition to studying passages related to "propitiation" for a response in this forum. The use of that word in Romans 3:25 is likely a mistranslation and misunderstanding of the Greek word.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Randy Bosch

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2020, 04:51:00 PM »
I've spent many hours the past few days translating a chapter in Leviticus from the Hebrew and then translating it from the Greek of the Septuagint; then doing some word studies of key words. This is just the first step in my study of the passages.

This is in addition to studying passages related to "propitiation" for a response in this forum. The use of that word in Romans 3:25 is likely a mistranslation and misunderstanding of the Greek word. 

You've spent considerable energy on this Forum over a number of years promoting understanding word use and meaning based upon understanding the language and culture of the place and age where specific words were earliest identified.
You've promoted the use of current English language word use to make a pre-existing usage "more understandable" to your contemporaries.  The definition and use of certain words does change, sometimes within a generation in a specific area - with perhaps greater time needed to spread the "new" definition and use to a region or world usage within the designated language.  Such changes and clarifications are especially evident in a language where a specific word may have several definitions and uses ranging from technical jargon through common usage to slang.  Popularity or repetition of use is often cited in the ordering of a words several definitions in many dictionaries.  Synonyms often abound, often illustrating how usage has varied over time and region.

Variants of definition and usage of a word ebb and flow over time and from place to place.

Perhaps what you have hypothesized in the midst of your extensive word studies as 'likely a mistranslation and misunderstanding' arises in that process, including your education, study methodology - and that of the writer using a word in a particular time and place.  Try having an essay approved using the Strunck & White Manual of Style where using the Chicago Manual of Style, to cite two of many, is required and even that challenge will vary depending upon which Edition the editors use.

Given such a reality, please consider your usage of 'likely a mistranslation and misunderstanding' - themselves two not necessarily congruent possibilities - as you continue your studies.
Thank you.

 

Weedon

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2020, 05:01:32 PM »
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
Catechist on LPR Podcast: The Word of the Lord Endures Forever
A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

+Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum

Randy Bosch

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2020, 05:16:10 PM »
Tolle, lege.

https://www.cfnews.org.uk/thou/

Thoughtfully written thought provoking article.  Thanks for sharing it!

Richard Johnson

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2020, 06:08:39 PM »
Yes, read it in First Things. I almost entirely agree.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2020, 06:23:13 PM »
I've spent many hours the past few days translating a chapter in Leviticus from the Hebrew and then translating it from the Greek of the Septuagint; then doing some word studies of key words. This is just the first step in my study of the passages.

This is in addition to studying passages related to "propitiation" for a response in this forum. The use of that word in Romans 3:25 is likely a mistranslation and misunderstanding of the Greek word. 

You've spent considerable energy on this Forum over a number of years promoting understanding word use and meaning based upon understanding the language and culture of the place and age where specific words were earliest identified.
You've promoted the use of current English language word use to make a pre-existing usage "more understandable" to your contemporaries.  The definition and use of certain words does change, sometimes within a generation in a specific area - with perhaps greater time needed to spread the "new" definition and use to a region or world usage within the designated language.  Such changes and clarifications are especially evident in a language where a specific word may have several definitions and uses ranging from technical jargon through common usage to slang.  Popularity or repetition of use is often cited in the ordering of a words several definitions in many dictionaries.  Synonyms often abound, often illustrating how usage has varied over time and region.

Variants of definition and usage of a word ebb and flow over time and from place to place.

Perhaps what you have hypothesized in the midst of your extensive word studies as 'likely a mistranslation and misunderstanding' arises in that process, including your education, study methodology - and that of the writer using a word in a particular time and place.  Try having an essay approved using the Strunck & White Manual of Style where using the Chicago Manual of Style, to cite two of many, is required and even that challenge will vary depending upon which Edition the editors use.

Given such a reality, please consider your usage of 'likely a mistranslation and misunderstanding' - themselves two not necessarily congruent possibilities - as you continue your studies.
Thank you.


Certainly. In fact, an argument that the American Bible Society made for its Good News Bible, against those who argued that they were changing the Bible, was that the Bible does not change, but the English language does. So, in order to keep the Bible understandable, it needs to be retranslated to continue to convey its meaning to contemporary people.


Another issue is the discovery of further ancient documents that increase our knowledge of how words were used back in their original settings. Our understanding of the meanings of the ancient Hebrew and Greek words has increased greatly since the 17th century when the KJV was created. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature is on its third edition (published 2001). The first English edition was published in 1957 based on the third edition of a Greek-German Lexicon that was first published in 1910. I read that the third edition includes over 15,000 new citations. I have and used the first and second editions, the third is much better.


Unfortunately, I don't believe that new and improved Hebrew-English Lexicons of the Old Testament have been produced with the same frequency. My Brown-Driver-Briggs is basically the same one from 1907 with a few corrections that could be made in the sheets without resetting the whole book.




At the same time, we also recognize the limits of our knowledge; so, there will be footnotes that state that the Hebrew is unclear. (Meaning: the translators are guessing what it means.) Often footnotes indicate that the translators decided that the meaning from the ancient LXX or Syr or Lat translations make better sense and use that instead of the Hebrew.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Romans 13 and Revelation 13
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2020, 06:29:48 PM »
Richard writes:
Yes, read it in First Things. I almost entirely agree.
I comment:
Me, too.
The efforts to "update" or "modernize" or colloquialize the language, especially with regard to pronouns and the terminology of pious expressions have done great damage to English and the dignity, solemnity, and depth of what we speak and sing.

Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Missing NY/NJ and trips to Europe. I despise Daylight Savings Time which serves no purpose, disrupts my quotidian body clock and (I am reliably told) severely troubles cows and other huggable farm animals.