We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?

[Dave Benke]

Augsburg Catholic is not able to tell us where her/his congregation is located.  So be it.  It's all good.

Here's something sent to me on church leadership - 11 things that leaders are getting right:  https://plileadership.org/11-things-church-leaders-are-getting-right-in-covid-19/.

The revised standard worship schedule with a masked service, and online service and an unmasked service caught my attention.  The pastor in that scenario being all things to all people comports himself in the first service as appropriately cautious and in the third as appropriately incautious.   From "only an idiot would fail to wear a mask" to "why do those idiots insist on wearing masks?"  In the second, online service he tells jokes in a Hawaiian shirt.  It's all good.

Full disclosure - I do wear Hawaiian shirts for our informal Wednesday evening prayer service online/livestream.  Lots of positive comments on my partnership with Tommy Bahama. 

Dave Benke

[Michael Slusser]

Full disclosure - I do wear Hawaiian shirts for our informal Wednesday evening prayer service online/livestream.  Lots of positive comments on my partnership with Tommy Bahama. 

Dave Benke

Joined the Boogaloo Bois, have you? 

Peace,
Michael

[FrPeters]

Augsburg Catholic had better things to do than be on this forum.  FWIW, Augsburg Catholic is located about 40 miles northwest of Nashville, TN.

[Richard Johnson]

Augsburg Catholic had better things to do than be on this forum. 

I wish that were true for more people. 

[J. Thomas Shelley]

Today was the Great Feast of the Transfiguration (duly noted as "optional" in the Ministers' Desk Edition of LBW) and we had better-than-normal weekday attendance, about 50/50 masked/unmasked.

A very high percentage--probably 80-90%--of the faithful Communed, in part because this Feast occurs within the 14 day Dormition Fast.

In the Orthodox tradition the first fruits of the grape harvest are blessed near the close of the Divine Liturgy.

This year, instead of being arrayed openly on a tray, the grapes were placed in "snack size" ziploc baggies.

Irrespective, they were delicious and a welcome repast after the Eucharistic Fast.

[Dave Benke]

Today was the Great Feast of the Transfiguration (duly noted as "optional" in the Ministers' Desk Edition of LBW) and we had better-than-normal weekday attendance, about 50/50 masked/unmasked.

A very high percentage--probably 80-90%--of the faithful Communed, in part because this Feast occurs within the 14 day Dormition Fast.

In the Orthodox tradition the first fruits of the grape harvest are blessed near the close of the Divine Liturgy.

This year, instead of being arrayed openly on a tray, the grapes were placed in "snack size" ziploc baggies.

Irrespective, they were delicious and a welcome repast after the Eucharistic Fast.

Thanks for these images and descriptions, Tom! 

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

[James J Eivan]

Augsburg Catholic had better things to do than be on this forum.  FWIW, Augsburg Catholic is located about 40 miles northwest of Nashville, TN.

Most likely a member of the orthodox Lutheran congregation in Clarksville.😎

[J. Thomas Shelley]

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

The Greek title for the August 15 Feast is Kisminis Theotokos which literally means "the falling asleep of the Theotokos".

Orthodox belief is that Mary, like all humans (other than Enoch and Elijah) died a natural death.  As she approached death, the Apostles who had been scattered about in mission were miraculously transported to her bedside.  After her death these chosen ones took her body to tomb.

But Thomas, "the twin", was delayed in arriving.   When he came to Ephesus he told the others that, just as with Our Lord's Resurrection, he would not believe unless he saw with his own eyes.  So they went to the tomb and opened it, whereupon it was discovered to be empty and they realized that her body had been carried into Heaven.

So, yes, Orthodox belief does have an element of Assumption; but the Assumption is understood in Roman Catholocism is a 20th century innovation, dogmatized just seventy years ago.  The key difference is that Orthodox believe that Mary truly died and that her physical removal was a secret, non-public miracle.

https://www.goarch.org/dormition
http://www.antiochian.org/regulararticle/124

[Steven W Bohler]

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

The Greek title for the August 15 Feast is Kisminis Theotokos which literally means "the falling asleep of the Theotokos".

Orthodox belief is that Mary, like all humans (other than Enoch and Elijah) died a natural death.  As she approached death, the Apostles who had been scattered about in mission were miraculously transported to her bedside.  After her death these chosen ones took her body to tomb.

But Thomas, "the twin", was delayed in arriving.   When he came to Ephesus he told the others that, just as with Our Lord's Resurrection, he would not believe unless he saw with his own eyes.  So they went to the tomb and opened it, whereupon it was discovered to be empty and they realized that her body had been carried into Heaven.

So, yes, Orthodox belief does have an element of Assumption; but the Assumption is understood in Roman Catholocism is a 20th century innovation, dogmatized just seventy years ago.  The key difference is that Orthodox believe that Mary truly died and that her physical removal was a secret, non-public miracle.

https://www.goarch.org/dormition
http://www.antiochian.org/regulararticle/124

I find this interesting.  If the apostles were miraculously transported to Mary's bedside, is there any reason given why Thomas was delayed?  Was it said to be purposeful on God's part, so that they would have a reason to open the tomb to find it empty?

[Pr. Don Kirchner]

Full disclosure - I do wear Hawaiian shirts for our informal Wednesday evening prayer service online/livestream.  Lots of positive comments on my partnership with Tommy Bahama. 

TMI! For casual you probably wear a t-shirt tucked into your jorts!   

[J. Thomas Shelley]

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

The Greek title for the August 15 Feast is Kisminis Theotokos which literally means "the falling asleep of the Theotokos".

Orthodox belief is that Mary, like all humans (other than Enoch and Elijah) died a natural death.  As she approached death, the Apostles who had been scattered about in mission were miraculously transported to her bedside.  After her death these chosen ones took her body to tomb.

But Thomas, "the twin", was delayed in arriving.   When he came to Ephesus he told the others that, just as with Our Lord's Resurrection, he would not believe unless he saw with his own eyes.  So they went to the tomb and opened it, whereupon it was discovered to be empty and they realized that her body had been carried into Heaven.

So, yes, Orthodox belief does have an element of Assumption; but the Assumption is understood in Roman Catholocism is a 20th century innovation, dogmatized just seventy years ago.  The key difference is that Orthodox believe that Mary truly died and that her physical removal was a secret, non-public miracle.

https://www.goarch.org/dormition
http://www.antiochian.org/regulararticle/124

I find this interesting.  If the apostles were miraculously transported to Mary's bedside, is there any reason given why Thomas was delayed?  Was it said to be purposeful on God's part, so that they would have a reason to open the tomb to find it empty?

I personally believe that God acts purposefully; Thomas' delay was for the purpose of opening the tomb but also to draw a parallel between his initial reaction to word of Our Lord's Resurrection and his reaction to learning of His Mother's dormition.

This Feast is an affirmation of the resurrection of the body, and it is indeed proper and right that she who was the first repository of the body of Christ and the ark of the New Covenant should be the first fruit of the general resurrection of mankind.

[Tom Eckstein]

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

The Greek title for the August 15 Feast is Kisminis Theotokos which literally means "the falling asleep of the Theotokos".

Orthodox belief is that Mary, like all humans (other than Enoch and Elijah) died a natural death.  As she approached death, the Apostles who had been scattered about in mission were miraculously transported to her bedside.  After her death these chosen ones took her body to tomb.

But Thomas, "the twin", was delayed in arriving.   When he came to Ephesus he told the others that, just as with Our Lord's Resurrection, he would not believe unless he saw with his own eyes.  So they went to the tomb and opened it, whereupon it was discovered to be empty and they realized that her body had been carried into Heaven.

So, yes, Orthodox belief does have an element of Assumption; but the Assumption is understood in Roman Catholocism is a 20th century innovation, dogmatized just seventy years ago.  The key difference is that Orthodox believe that Mary truly died and that her physical removal was a secret, non-public miracle.

https://www.goarch.org/dormition
http://www.antiochian.org/regulararticle/124

I find this interesting.  If the apostles were miraculously transported to Mary's bedside, is there any reason given why Thomas was delayed?  Was it said to be purposeful on God's part, so that they would have a reason to open the tomb to find it empty?

I personally believe that God acts purposefully; Thomas' delay was for the purpose of opening the tomb but also to draw a parallel between his initial reaction to word of Our Lord's Resurrection and his reaction to learning of His Mother's dormition.

This Feast is an affirmation of the resurrection of the body, and it is indeed proper and right that she who was the first repository of the body of Christ and the ark of the New Covenant should be the first fruit of the general resurrection of mankind.

 I'm curious, which church fathers speak of this tradition regarding Mary?

[Weedon]

I believe the first to mention it is Epiphanios of Salamis (d. 403). He says: “If anyone holds that we are mistaken, let him simply follow the indications of Scripture, in which is found no mention of Mary’s death, whether she died or did not die, whether she was buried or was not buried. For when John was sent to his voyage to Asia, no one says that he had the holy virgin with him a companion. Scripture simply is silent, because of the greatness of the prodigy, in order to strike the mind of man with excessive wonder. As far as I am concerned, I dare not speak out, but I maintain a meditative silence. For you would find (in Scripture) hardly any news about this holy and blessed woman, of whom nothing is said concerning her death.... But I dare not affirm this with absolute certainty, nor do I say that she remained untouched by death, nor can I confirm whether she died. The Scriptures, which are above reason, left this question so that no one could suspect her of carnal baseness. We not know if she died or if she was buried; however, she did not have carnal relations. Let this never be said!” (PG 42:716).” He later wrote: “If the holy Virgin is dead and has been buried, surely her dormition happened with great honor; her end was most pure and crowned with virginity. If she was slain, according to what is written, ‘A sword shall pierce your soul’, then she obtained glory together with the martyrs and her holy body, from which light shone forth for all the world, dwells among those who enjoy the repose of the blessed. Or she continued to live. For, to God, it is not impossible to do whatever he will; on the other hand *no one knows exactly what her end was.*” (PG 42:737).

None of the earlier fathers mention it, at least that I have discovered. And when someone is confessing in 400 that no one knows her exact end...the later certainty regarding the matter is what this Lutheran would call HIGHLY suspect. (John of Damascus, Germanus, Andrew of Crete, they will all be quite certain and quite late). You’ll not read hide nor hair of it in Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Augustine, Ambrose, Hilary, Basil, Chrysostom, etc.

[Tom Eckstein]

I believe the first to mention it is Epiphanios of Salamis (d. 403). He says: “If anyone holds that we are mistaken, let him simply follow the indications of Scripture, in which is found no mention of Mary’s death, whether she died or did not die, whether she was buried or was not buried. For when John was sent to his voyage to Asia, no one says that he had the holy virgin with him a companion. Scripture simply is silent, because of the greatness of the prodigy, in order to strike the mind of man with excessive wonder. As far as I am concerned, I dare not speak out, but I maintain a meditative silence. For you would find (in Scripture) hardly any news about this holy and blessed woman, of whom nothing is said concerning her death.... But I dare not affirm this with absolute certainty, nor do I say that she remained untouched by death, nor can I confirm whether she died. The Scriptures, which are above reason, left this question so that no one could suspect her of carnal baseness. We not know if she died or if she was buried; however, she did not have carnal relations. Let this never be said!” (PG 42:716).” He later wrote: “If the holy Virgin is dead and has been buried, surely her dormition happened with great honor; her end was most pure and crowned with virginity. If she was slain, according to what is written, ‘A sword shall pierce your soul’, then she obtained glory together with the martyrs and her holy body, from which light shone forth for all the world, dwells among those who enjoy the repose of the blessed. Or she continued to live. For, to God, it is not impossible to do whatever he will; on the other hand *no one knows exactly what her end was.*” (PG 42:737).

None of the earlier fathers mention it, at least that I have discovered. And when someone is confessing in 400 that no one knows her exact end...the later certainty regarding the matter is what this Lutheran would call HIGHLY suspect. (John of Damascus, Germanus, Andrew of Crete, they will all be quite certain and quite late). You’ll not read hide nor hair of it in Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Augustine, Ambrose, Hilary, Basil, Chrysostom, etc.

Will, thanks for this information. I find it interesting that the church father you quoted says that scripture does not mention Mary's death. Well, the fact is that scripture does not mention the death of most of the apostles.

[Dan Fienen]

Perhaps the Biblical writers were just not as interested in and concerned about Mary as later churchmen were.