Author Topic: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?  (Read 12749 times)

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11810
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #150 on: August 06, 2020, 09:07:03 AM »
Augsburg Catholic is not able to tell us where her/his congregation is located.  So be it.  It's all good.

Here's something sent to me on church leadership - 11 things that leaders are getting right:  https://plileadership.org/11-things-church-leaders-are-getting-right-in-covid-19/.

The revised standard worship schedule with a masked service, and online service and an unmasked service caught my attention.  The pastor in that scenario being all things to all people comports himself in the first service as appropriately cautious and in the third as appropriately incautious.   From "only an idiot would fail to wear a mask" to "why do those idiots insist on wearing masks?"  In the second, online service he tells jokes in a Hawaiian shirt.  It's all good.

Full disclosure - I do wear Hawaiian shirts for our informal Wednesday evening prayer service online/livestream.  Lots of positive comments on my partnership with Tommy Bahama. 

Dave Benke

Michael Slusser

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5082
    • View Profile
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #151 on: August 06, 2020, 09:33:02 AM »
Full disclosure - I do wear Hawaiian shirts for our informal Wednesday evening prayer service online/livestream.  Lots of positive comments on my partnership with Tommy Bahama. 

Dave Benke
Joined the Boogaloo Bois, have you?  ;)

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

FrPeters

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
  • An Obedient Rebel
    • View Profile
    • Grace Lutheran Church Website
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #152 on: August 06, 2020, 07:04:06 PM »
Augsburg Catholic had better things to do than be on this forum.  FWIW, Augsburg Catholic is located about 40 miles northwest of Nashville, TN.
Fr Larry Peters
Grace LCMS, Clarksville, TN
http://www.pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10313
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #153 on: August 06, 2020, 10:36:16 PM »
Augsburg Catholic had better things to do than be on this forum. 

I wish that were true for more people.  8)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

J. Thomas Shelley

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3745
    • View Profile
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #154 on: August 06, 2020, 11:22:46 PM »
Today was the Great Feast of the Transfiguration (duly noted as "optional" in the Ministers' Desk Edition of LBW) and we had better-than-normal weekday attendance, about 50/50 masked/unmasked.

A very high percentage--probably 80-90%--of the faithful Communed, in part because this Feast occurs within the 14 day Dormition Fast.

In the Orthodox tradition the first fruits of the grape harvest are blessed near the close of the Divine Liturgy.

This year, instead of being arrayed openly on a tray, the grapes were placed in "snack size" ziploc baggies.

Irrespective, they were delicious and a welcome repast after the Eucharistic Fast.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 11:41:06 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11810
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #155 on: August 07, 2020, 11:32:59 AM »
Today was the Great Feast of the Transfiguration (duly noted as "optional" in the Ministers' Desk Edition of LBW) and we had better-than-normal weekday attendance, about 50/50 masked/unmasked.

A very high percentage--probably 80-90%--of the faithful Communed, in part because this Feast occurs within the 14 day Dormition Fast.

In the Orthodox tradition the first fruits of the grape harvest are blessed near the close of the Divine Liturgy.

This year, instead of being arrayed openly on a tray, the grapes were placed in "snack size" ziploc baggies.

Irrespective, they were delicious and a welcome repast after the Eucharistic Fast.

Thanks for these images and descriptions, Tom! 

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

James J Eivan

  • Guest
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #156 on: August 07, 2020, 12:39:05 PM »
Augsburg Catholic had better things to do than be on this forum.  FWIW, Augsburg Catholic is located about 40 miles northwest of Nashville, TN.
Most likely a member of the orthodox Lutheran congregation in Clarksville.😎

J. Thomas Shelley

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3745
    • View Profile
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #157 on: August 07, 2020, 01:36:24 PM »

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

The Greek title for the August 15 Feast is Kisminis Theotokos which literally means "the falling asleep of the Theotokos".

Orthodox belief is that Mary, like all humans (other than Enoch and Elijah) died a natural death.  As she approached death, the Apostles who had been scattered about in mission were miraculously transported to her bedside.  After her death these chosen ones took her body to tomb.

But Thomas, "the twin", was delayed in arriving.   When he came to Ephesus he told the others that, just as with Our Lord's Resurrection, he would not believe unless he saw with his own eyes.  So they went to the tomb and opened it, whereupon it was discovered to be empty and they realized that her body had been carried into Heaven.

So, yes, Orthodox belief does have an element of Assumption; but the Assumption is understood in Roman Catholocism is a 20th century innovation, dogmatized just seventy years ago.  The key difference is that Orthodox believe that Mary truly died and that her physical removal was a secret, non-public miracle.

https://www.goarch.org/dormition
http://www.antiochian.org/regulararticle/124
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 01:54:09 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3527
    • View Profile
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #158 on: August 09, 2020, 08:15:57 AM »

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

The Greek title for the August 15 Feast is Kisminis Theotokos which literally means "the falling asleep of the Theotokos".

Orthodox belief is that Mary, like all humans (other than Enoch and Elijah) died a natural death.  As she approached death, the Apostles who had been scattered about in mission were miraculously transported to her bedside.  After her death these chosen ones took her body to tomb.

But Thomas, "the twin", was delayed in arriving.   When he came to Ephesus he told the others that, just as with Our Lord's Resurrection, he would not believe unless he saw with his own eyes.  So they went to the tomb and opened it, whereupon it was discovered to be empty and they realized that her body had been carried into Heaven.

So, yes, Orthodox belief does have an element of Assumption; but the Assumption is understood in Roman Catholocism is a 20th century innovation, dogmatized just seventy years ago.  The key difference is that Orthodox believe that Mary truly died and that her physical removal was a secret, non-public miracle.

https://www.goarch.org/dormition
http://www.antiochian.org/regulararticle/124

I find this interesting.  If the apostles were miraculously transported to Mary's bedside, is there any reason given why Thomas was delayed?  Was it said to be purposeful on God's part, so that they would have a reason to open the tomb to find it empty?

Pr. Don Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11143
    • View Profile
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #159 on: August 09, 2020, 12:04:55 PM »
Full disclosure - I do wear Hawaiian shirts for our informal Wednesday evening prayer service online/livestream.  Lots of positive comments on my partnership with Tommy Bahama. 

TMI! For casual you probably wear a t-shirt tucked into your jorts!   :o
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

J. Thomas Shelley

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3745
    • View Profile
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #160 on: August 09, 2020, 01:13:48 PM »

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

The Greek title for the August 15 Feast is Kisminis Theotokos which literally means "the falling asleep of the Theotokos".

Orthodox belief is that Mary, like all humans (other than Enoch and Elijah) died a natural death.  As she approached death, the Apostles who had been scattered about in mission were miraculously transported to her bedside.  After her death these chosen ones took her body to tomb.

But Thomas, "the twin", was delayed in arriving.   When he came to Ephesus he told the others that, just as with Our Lord's Resurrection, he would not believe unless he saw with his own eyes.  So they went to the tomb and opened it, whereupon it was discovered to be empty and they realized that her body had been carried into Heaven.

So, yes, Orthodox belief does have an element of Assumption; but the Assumption is understood in Roman Catholocism is a 20th century innovation, dogmatized just seventy years ago.  The key difference is that Orthodox believe that Mary truly died and that her physical removal was a secret, non-public miracle.

https://www.goarch.org/dormition
http://www.antiochian.org/regulararticle/124

I find this interesting.  If the apostles were miraculously transported to Mary's bedside, is there any reason given why Thomas was delayed?  Was it said to be purposeful on God's part, so that they would have a reason to open the tomb to find it empty?

I personally believe that God acts purposefully; Thomas' delay was for the purpose of opening the tomb but also to draw a parallel between his initial reaction to word of Our Lord's Resurrection and his reaction to learning of His Mother's dormition.

This Feast is an affirmation of the resurrection of the body, and it is indeed proper and right that she who was the first repository of the body of Christ and the ark of the New Covenant should be the first fruit of the general resurrection of mankind.


Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

Tom Eckstein

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • Tom Eckstein
    • View Profile
    • Concordia Lutheran Church, Jamestown, ND
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #161 on: August 10, 2020, 09:26:47 AM »

Regarding the Dormition - help me with Orthodox tradition/dogma on the topic, connecting to Repose vs. Assumption, and the earlier/earliest traditions in Ephesus and if those changed in Orthodoxy over the centuries.

Dave Benke

The Greek title for the August 15 Feast is Kisminis Theotokos which literally means "the falling asleep of the Theotokos".

Orthodox belief is that Mary, like all humans (other than Enoch and Elijah) died a natural death.  As she approached death, the Apostles who had been scattered about in mission were miraculously transported to her bedside.  After her death these chosen ones took her body to tomb.

But Thomas, "the twin", was delayed in arriving.   When he came to Ephesus he told the others that, just as with Our Lord's Resurrection, he would not believe unless he saw with his own eyes.  So they went to the tomb and opened it, whereupon it was discovered to be empty and they realized that her body had been carried into Heaven.

So, yes, Orthodox belief does have an element of Assumption; but the Assumption is understood in Roman Catholocism is a 20th century innovation, dogmatized just seventy years ago.  The key difference is that Orthodox believe that Mary truly died and that her physical removal was a secret, non-public miracle.

https://www.goarch.org/dormition
http://www.antiochian.org/regulararticle/124

I find this interesting.  If the apostles were miraculously transported to Mary's bedside, is there any reason given why Thomas was delayed?  Was it said to be purposeful on God's part, so that they would have a reason to open the tomb to find it empty?

I personally believe that God acts purposefully; Thomas' delay was for the purpose of opening the tomb but also to draw a parallel between his initial reaction to word of Our Lord's Resurrection and his reaction to learning of His Mother's dormition.

This Feast is an affirmation of the resurrection of the body, and it is indeed proper and right that she who was the first repository of the body of Christ and the ark of the New Covenant should be the first fruit of the general resurrection of mankind.

 I'm curious, which church fathers speak of this tradition regarding Mary?
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Weedon

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11146
    • View Profile
    • My Blog
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #162 on: August 10, 2020, 10:13:55 AM »
I believe the first to mention it is Epiphanios of Salamis (d. 403). He says: “If anyone holds that we are mistaken, let him simply follow the indications of Scripture, in which is found no mention of Mary’s death, whether she died or did not die, whether she was buried or was not buried. For when John was sent to his voyage to Asia, no one says that he had the holy virgin with him a companion. Scripture simply is silent, because of the greatness of the prodigy, in order to strike the mind of man with excessive wonder. As far as I am concerned, I dare not speak out, but I maintain a meditative silence. For you would find (in Scripture) hardly any news about this holy and blessed woman, of whom nothing is said concerning her death.... But I dare not affirm this with absolute certainty, nor do I say that she remained untouched by death, nor can I confirm whether she died. The Scriptures, which are above reason, left this question so that no one could suspect her of carnal baseness. We not know if she died or if she was buried; however, she did not have carnal relations. Let this never be said!” (PG 42:716).” He later wrote: “If the holy Virgin is dead and has been buried, surely her dormition happened with great honor; her end was most pure and crowned with virginity. If she was slain, according to what is written, ‘A sword shall pierce your soul’, then she obtained glory together with the martyrs and her holy body, from which light shone forth for all the world, dwells among those who enjoy the repose of the blessed. Or she continued to live. For, to God, it is not impossible to do whatever he will; on the other hand *no one knows exactly what her end was.*” (PG 42:737).

None of the earlier fathers mention it, at least that I have discovered. And when someone is confessing in 400 that no one knows her exact end...the later certainty regarding the matter is what this Lutheran would call HIGHLY suspect. (John of Damascus, Germanus, Andrew of Crete, they will all be quite certain and quite late). You’ll not read hide nor hair of it in Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Augustine, Ambrose, Hilary, Basil, Chrysostom, etc.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 10:27:26 AM by Weedon »
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
Catechist on LPR Podcast: The Word of the Lord Endures Forever
A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

+Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum

Tom Eckstein

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • Tom Eckstein
    • View Profile
    • Concordia Lutheran Church, Jamestown, ND
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #163 on: August 10, 2020, 11:46:14 AM »
I believe the first to mention it is Epiphanios of Salamis (d. 403). He says: “If anyone holds that we are mistaken, let him simply follow the indications of Scripture, in which is found no mention of Mary’s death, whether she died or did not die, whether she was buried or was not buried. For when John was sent to his voyage to Asia, no one says that he had the holy virgin with him a companion. Scripture simply is silent, because of the greatness of the prodigy, in order to strike the mind of man with excessive wonder. As far as I am concerned, I dare not speak out, but I maintain a meditative silence. For you would find (in Scripture) hardly any news about this holy and blessed woman, of whom nothing is said concerning her death.... But I dare not affirm this with absolute certainty, nor do I say that she remained untouched by death, nor can I confirm whether she died. The Scriptures, which are above reason, left this question so that no one could suspect her of carnal baseness. We not know if she died or if she was buried; however, she did not have carnal relations. Let this never be said!” (PG 42:716).” He later wrote: “If the holy Virgin is dead and has been buried, surely her dormition happened with great honor; her end was most pure and crowned with virginity. If she was slain, according to what is written, ‘A sword shall pierce your soul’, then she obtained glory together with the martyrs and her holy body, from which light shone forth for all the world, dwells among those who enjoy the repose of the blessed. Or she continued to live. For, to God, it is not impossible to do whatever he will; on the other hand *no one knows exactly what her end was.*” (PG 42:737).

None of the earlier fathers mention it, at least that I have discovered. And when someone is confessing in 400 that no one knows her exact end...the later certainty regarding the matter is what this Lutheran would call HIGHLY suspect. (John of Damascus, Germanus, Andrew of Crete, they will all be quite certain and quite late). You’ll not read hide nor hair of it in Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Augustine, Ambrose, Hilary, Basil, Chrysostom, etc.

Will, thanks for this information. I find it interesting that the church father you quoted says that scripture does not mention Mary's death. Well, the fact is that scripture does not mention the death of most of the apostles.
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11915
    • View Profile
Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #164 on: August 10, 2020, 12:00:58 PM »
Perhaps the Biblical writers were just not as interested in and concerned about Mary as later churchmen were.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS