Author Topic: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?  (Read 18940 times)

readselerttoo

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2020, 12:22:05 PM »
Along the lines of Amos 3:6, in David's census, one of the Biblical stories Cranmer points us towards for these times:  "Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah." (2 Sam. 24:1 ESV)"

Material Cause: Germs
Efficient Cause: David's Counting (that is even good epidemiology, creating contacts throughout the kingdom).
Formal Cause: Usurpation of the things of God
Final Cause: The anger of the Lord

Sometimes you might find yourself fighting germs.  Lysol is a good idea.  Maybe even masks.  But you might also find yourself wrestling God. Limiting yourself to material things is condemning yourself to the task of Sisyphus.  20 years from now there will still be a NY bureaucrat testing and tracing COVID-19 seeking the last of it.

 :)

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2020, 12:35:43 PM »
From the Symbol of our faith:

“....Creator of all things, visible and invisible....”

With respect, is the term invisible here meant to be a reference to microbes and viruses? I had the pleasure of hearing a great Orthodox Church historian, Jaroslav Pelikan (😉) speak about the Nicene Creed at length, and explain that very clause.  He argued that the invisible to which it refers was the spiritual or supernatural.

And, it’s not that the novel Corona virus is invisible, it’s just reeeeeeeealy small, and so needs magnification to be seen. What Pelikan did was spend time talking about the importance and the placement of the comma in the phrase, so that the natural and the supernatural were not separated by some chasm, but were all part of God’s creation.
 
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Dave Benke

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2020, 01:01:41 PM »
From the Symbol of our faith:

“....Creator of all things, visible and invisible....”

With respect, is the term invisible here meant to be a reference to microbes and viruses? I had the pleasure of hearing a great Orthodox Church historian, Jaroslav Pelikan (😉) speak about the Nicene Creed at length, and explain that very clause.  He argued that the invisible to which it refers was the spiritual or supernatural.

And, it’s not that the novel Corona virus is invisible, it’s just reeeeeeeealy small, and so needs magnification to be seen. What Pelikan did was spend time talking about the importance and the placement of the comma in the phrase, so that the natural and the supernatural were not separated by some chasm, but were all part of God’s creation.

Thanks for this - very helpful

Dave Benke

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2020, 01:22:24 PM »
Thank you, Mark. That was very finely stated.

Scott, I, for one, wonder where you find magic in the Gottesdienst post. I hear faith. “Though he slay me, yet will I trust him!” Job 13:15. There’s no assertion that there’s no danger in the gathering; there is an assertion that, well, as the Abitenae martyr put it when challenged for why they disobeyed and still gathered: “Sine dominico non possumus.”

Will,

To answer your question about it being “magical” there are a couple of things that I was thinking of.  For one, things like plagues or pandemics were much more laden with metaphysical meaning in the ancient world.  This isn’t to say that no such meaning is at work currently in what is going on but scientific advancement has opened our eyes to many things that they were simply unaware of.  This connects to what Charles Taylor refers to as the enchanted/disenchanted age distinction.  We live in a disenchanted age, but the ancients lived in an enchanted one is which spirits and the existence of God were simply a given.  The world was embedded with meaning, not so much anymore.  When our authoritative ancient documents are used in the way that they are above I get apprehensive because they seemingly pit science against faith in a way that I don’t think is helpful.  Thus, my reference to “magical” thinking.   It’s very black and white, at least that’s how I read it.  There’s also the element of Romans 13, too.  I can understand the apprehension and suspicion of governmental authority, especially after the protests and especially in places like Illinois and my own state of NY.  But as Matt Staneck pointed out above Gottesdienst is also a particular brand of right-wing that I think tends to confuse civil liberties with freedom in Christ.  I also think of the brilliant insights of Jesuit Bernard Lonergan, I’ve mentioned and written about him recently.  He notes that one of the problems with an overemphasis on the objectivity of truth is that we can easily be lulled into thinking that we need not think too much.  As an example, we can take bible verses and simply use them without regard for the actual concrete situations and lives around us.  Sort of like, “this is true because God said so” no more, no less.  I think he comes down too hard on people, I think everyone has been struggling hard with what to do and how to do it.  I don’t think it is as simple as faith in the resurrection versus not having faith in the resurrection.  I think we are all trying the best that we can and in many ways seeking to be as faithful as possible.  Modernity, in its own way, has simply increased that burden and, at times, made it harder to navigate.  At the same time, this isn’t to say that we haven’t sought be connected, to share God’s Word, to preach and to teach.  That’s still being done, which the author does not mention at all.  As far as I know churches have certainly not given up and closed up shop.  Quite the opposite. 

I hope that makes sense.

Peace,
Scott+

I, by no means, am a Luddite.  I agree with science when its claims and solutions stay within the boundaries of its method.  But Christian faith calls us finally to put away all hope in other matters and methods (repentance) and turn to the only unique One (ie. Jesus Christ) for trust and hope in his promises of salvation.  It is Christ's person, words and work which rescue and save from the unknown.  Finally it is not a both/and but an either/or to which Christians are called.   We are not called to trust in both science and faith but to trust Christ alone.  In the Last Court on the Last Day God will call each of us to account for our sin and for the hope that is in us.  The man who addressed Jesus with these words: "I believe.  Help my unbelief."  were words of desperation pointed to the right person and in the right direction.  Jesus didn't use science to save.  Jesus himself cast the demon out of the man's son in Mark 9.

But to be clear I wasn’t intending to create such a dichotomy nor do I think I did in what I wrote.  Rather bear in mind that what started this specific conversation was the Gottesdienst post.  My point was to bear witness to the fact that we human beings of the 21st century are seeking the best ways to be faithful in such a time.  Of seeking to be faithful to our Lord while also being wise and prudent in such a way that is loving and respectful of our neighbors.  Just like the ancients we are seeking the best way to be faithful given the myriad of factors before us.  I believe that the post shared frames the issue in a poor and unhelpful way.  It sets up a false dichotomy i.e. going food shopping but not going for the Lord’s Supper.  Did you know that many of us have had our food delivered?  Also, because I am in Westchester, we are currently communing our people, I just visited someone on Friday for the first time in months, but we are doing so cautiously.  Thinking in terms of the Markan Jesus, which you reference, I think of the places where he bumps up against the seeming literalism of his opponents who often placed awful burdens on the people.  I think this article does something similar without realizing it.  Whether its healing the leper who technically should’ve been healed by a priest, or his forgiving of the paralytic’s sins, or his breaking bread with sinners and tax collectors, or his healing on the Sabbath which was wrong because one was to remember the sabbath day and keep it holy, or his disciples eating food on the Sabbath and his seemingly anarchic response that the Sabbath is made for man and not vice versa. “I believe, help my unbelief” is about much more than receiving the Lord’s body and blood.  This, again, goes back to my reference to Lonergan who notes that a problem is treating the objectivity of truth as so objective that it does not account for the concrete and the particular.   If one does not account for that and grapple with it, you get things like the Gottesdienst article.
 
I’m sorry, I don’t buy it. 

Peace,
Scott+

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2020, 01:43:38 PM »
From the Symbol of our faith:

“....Creator of all things, visible and invisible....”

With respect, is the term invisible here meant to be a reference to microbes and viruses? I had the pleasure of hearing a great Orthodox Church historian, Jaroslav Pelikan (😉) speak about the Nicene Creed at length, and explain that very clause.  He argued that the invisible to which it refers was the spiritual or supernatural.

And, it’s not that the novel Corona virus is invisible, it’s just reeeeeeeealy small, and so needs magnification to be seen. What Pelikan did was spend time talking about the importance and the placement of the comma in the phrase, so that the natural and the supernatural were not separated by some chasm, but were all part of God’s creation.

I have yet to find a congregation of any denomination to recite the creed pausing to recognize the comma.   :(

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2020, 02:13:17 PM »
Glad you agree with the Scriptures!


Always, but it can take some exegetical work to uncover the meaning of a biblical text so that we can apply it to our lives in the present time.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike in Pennsylvania

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2020, 04:09:33 PM »


I have yet to find a congregation of any denomination to recite the creed pausing to recognize the comma.   :(

Peace, JOHN


When the congregation I was serving at the time began using the LBW version of the Nicene Creed, I made a point of instructing them to pause for the comma.   ;D
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James_Gale

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2020, 04:50:15 PM »
From the Symbol of our faith:

“....Creator of all things, visible and invisible....”

With respect, is the term invisible here meant to be a reference to microbes and viruses? I had the pleasure of hearing a great Orthodox Church historian, Jaroslav Pelikan (😉) speak about the Nicene Creed at length, and explain that very clause.  He argued that the invisible to which it refers was the spiritual or supernatural.

And, it’s not that the novel Corona virus is invisible, it’s just reeeeeeeealy small, and so needs magnification to be seen. What Pelikan did was spend time talking about the importance and the placement of the comma in the phrase, so that the natural and the supernatural were not separated by some chasm, but were all part of God’s creation.

I have yet to find a congregation of any denomination to recite the creed pausing to recognize the comma.   :(

Peace, JOHN


We all internalize these things differently.  For whatever reason, I've always observed the comma in reciting the Nicene Creed.  Maybe I picked that up on my own.  Maybe I owe it to the likes of John Damm, who would have cared deeply about the significance of that kind of thing.  In any event, I don't think that the pause in any congregation was long enough for all to notice.  Many in the congregation no doubt did not.


(In light of recent events in Turkey, perhaps we should speak today of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, which I believe received final approval from the bishops a short walk from where Hagia Sophia now stands.)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 04:52:37 PM by James_Gale »

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2020, 04:52:04 PM »
FYI the comma also appears in the Greek version:

Quote

Πιστεύω εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.

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Matt Hummel

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2020, 04:52:41 PM »
From the Symbol of our faith:

“....Creator of all things, visible and invisible....”

With respect, is the term invisible here meant to be a reference to microbes and viruses? I had the pleasure of hearing a great Orthodox Church historian, Jaroslav Pelikan (😉) speak about the Nicene Creed at length, and explain that very clause.  He argued that the invisible to which it refers was the spiritual or supernatural.

And, it’s not that the novel Corona virus is invisible, it’s just reeeeeeeealy small, and so needs magnification to be seen. What Pelikan did was spend time talking about the importance and the placement of the comma in the phrase, so that the natural and the supernatural were not separated by some chasm, but were all part of God’s creation.

I have yet to find a congregation of any denomination to recite the creed pausing to recognize the comma.   :(

Peace, JOHN

John- two things
A) You obviously have never attended at one of my parishes. ;)
B) The point I gleaned from Pelikan was not so much the pause as spoken, but what that comma meant regarding how we are to see creation.
Matt Hummel


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― J.R.R. Tolkien

James_Gale

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2020, 04:53:42 PM »
FYI the comma also appears in the Greek version:

Quote

Πιστεύω εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.



I assume that that is the original version, no?

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2020, 05:06:00 PM »
I don't have any ready access to the 4th Century document.
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Julio

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2020, 05:39:10 PM »
Someone asks:
So, Pastor Austin, are we irresponsible or crazy or faithful?
I muse:
Or lucky?
A now sainted pastor once defined luck as ‘Divine intervention of the Lord’.  Though it was many years ago that he said that, I often remember it when ‘luck’ is mentioned by others.

May you be blessed by the Divine intervention of the Lord!

Julio

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2020, 06:26:01 PM »
FYI the comma also appears in the Greek version:

Quote

Πιστεύω εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.



I don't think that the original Greek had any punctuation.


It also used 1st person plural.


Πιστεύομεν εἱς ἕνα θεόν πατερα παντοκράτορα ποιητὴν οὐρανοὺ καὶ γῆς ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.


The original text may have been an uncial - all capital letters, perhaps without any spaces between words.


ΠΙΣΤΕΥΟΜΕΝΕΙΣΕΝΑΘΕΟΝΠΑΤΕΡΑΠΑΝΤΟΚΡΑΤΟΡΑΠΟΙΗΤΗΝΟΥΡΑΝΟΥΚΑΙΓΗΣΟΡΑΤΩΝΤΕΠΑΝΤΩΝΚΑΙΑΟΡΑΤΩΝ

The written text was not so much read as it was a memory device to help folks remember what the text said - as were the original uncials of the Bible.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 06:36:52 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
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Matt Hummel

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Re: We Are Not Quite Back - Will We Ever Be?
« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2020, 07:02:58 PM »
Since the article of the creed is about the one God, could the words mean that the one God is creator of all things, that, the one God is seen and unseen. A double appositive: “creator of all things,” and “visible and invisible.”?
On the other hand, an appositive usually refers to the noun immediately preceding. In this case that would be “things.”

Well, I will have to go with Jaroslav of blessed memory, for whom visible and invisible related to all things created.
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien