Author Topic: I Am a Liberal  (Read 10389 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2020, 10:05:44 PM »
Pastor Fienen (for the 10,000th time):
Would you force us to adopt your faith concerning marriage, so,that we must act and conduct our lives as,though we also believedmin same sex marriage?
Me:
Nope. But you may not discriminate against those who do.
Lord! What a boring, rutted road this is! Can we just not go down at again?
Should it illegal for a gay baker to discriminate against someone who ordered a cake for an anti same sex marriage event? How about a Black baker with an order for a White Pride event?  Police Appreciation Day event?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2020, 10:08:56 PM »
Pastor Fienen (for the 10,000th time):
Would you force us to adopt your faith concerning marriage, so,that we must act and conduct our lives as,though we also believedmin same sex marriage?
Me:
Nope. But you may not discriminate against those who do.
Lord! What a boring, rutted road this is! Can we just not go down at again?
Should it illegal for a gay baker to discriminate against someone who ordered a cake for an anti same sex marriage event? How about a Black baker with an order for a White Pride event?  Police Appreciation Day event?


It depends on what they want printed on the cake.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2020, 10:23:11 PM »
Pastor Fienen (for the 10,000th time):
Would you force us to adopt your faith concerning marriage, so,that we must act and conduct our lives as,though we also believedmin same sex marriage?
Me:
Nope. But you may not discriminate against those who do.
Lord! What a boring, rutted road this is! Can we just not go down at again?
Should it illegal for a gay baker to discriminate against someone who ordered a cake for an anti same sex marriage event? How about a Black baker with an order for a White Pride event?  Police Appreciation Day event?


It depends on what they want printed on the cake.
OK, "Same Sex Marriage is Not Marriage in God's Eyes" or "We Appreciate the Police!"
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

James J Eivan

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2020, 12:47:55 AM »
Pastor Fienen (for the 10,000th time):
Would you force us to adopt your faith concerning marriage, so,that we must act and conduct our lives as,though we also believedmin same sex marriage?
Me:
Nope. But you may not discriminate against those who do.
Lord! What a boring, rutted road this is! Can we just not go down at again?
Nobody is forcing you to post consecutively on a topic that bores you.
Could we just go on the record that we are going down this rutted road because of the graciously authored  first three references to sex in this thread.

It seems that the one who does not wish to travel a rutted road is leading the charge.😞😢🤥
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 12:50:07 AM by James »

David Garner

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2020, 08:13:59 AM »
Pastor Fienen (for the 10,000th time):
Would you force us to adopt your faith concerning marriage, so,that we must act and conduct our lives as,though we also believedmin same sex marriage?
Me:
Nope. But you may not discriminate against those who do.
Lord! What a boring, rutted road this is! Can we just not go down at again?
Nobody is forcing you to post consecutively on a topic that bores you.
Could we just go on the record that we are going down this rutted road because of the graciously authored  first three references to sex in this thread.

It seems that the one who does not wish to travel a rutted road is leading the charge.😞😢🤥

Bomb throwing is an art.  On some forums they call that trolling.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2020, 01:45:57 PM »
I think that is a list of nice sentiments, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a liberal, at least with classic liberalism.  In many ways, the statement could be construed as a rejection of liberalism.
Do you also disagree with this post on "classical liberal principles"? https://theihs.org/news/core-classical-liberal-principles/?gclid=CjwKCAjw8pH3BRAXEiwA1pvMsWhsYY9B65NVutYzXoLaJB0wCayxvJioWx4npc0OSSFV445Z9YLJChoCVYsQAvD_BwE

"Also?"  You do realize, Brian, that Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal," one that you say you identify with, is quite different from the description of classical liberalism offered by the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University.

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2020, 02:51:03 PM »
I think that is a list of nice sentiments, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a liberal, at least with classic liberalism.  In many ways, the statement could be construed as a rejection of liberalism.
Do you also disagree with this post on "classical liberal principles"? https://theihs.org/news/core-classical-liberal-principles/?gclid=CjwKCAjw8pH3BRAXEiwA1pvMsWhsYY9B65NVutYzXoLaJB0wCayxvJioWx4npc0OSSFV445Z9YLJChoCVYsQAvD_BwE

"Also?"  You do realize, Brian, that Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal," one that you say you identify with, is quite different from the description of classical liberalism offered by the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University.

Steven P. Tibbetts, citizen


Did you read the article from Brittanica? Liberalism has undergone changes. A communication problems exists when the opponents are thinking we're talking about the "classical liberalism" when we are actually talking about issues like those in Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal."
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 03:04:42 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2020, 05:37:20 PM »

Still waiting for an explanation to help me understand why in their stated concern for the weakest members of the community, abortion is not an issue, an issue simply to be dismissed.


So here is how people responded almost instantly:
A couple of those damned liberals said, “yeah, that’s us.” And then... And then....! Wait for it...!
-Liberalism isn’t truly liberal.
-Abortion! Abortion! (That’s all that matters)
-Ho hum, old stuff, yawn
-Well, we know Ron Howard is...
-“pure boilerplate”. So what?
That’s not an auspicious beginning of a discussion, is it? Oh, I forgot, someone also said this humble correspondent is ignorant and he doesn’t want to discuss things with me.
OK
The first principle: "1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. Period."


How does a discussion of abortion not fit into this principle?


Quote
-Abortion! Abortion! (That’s all that matters)

I can understand you not wanting this to be discussed. No that is not all that matters, care for children, the disabled, sick, and elderly are important no dispute about that, but defend excluding the unborn from this list of those who lack power and ability to care for themselves and thus need others to care, defend, and advocate for them. Are they not important enough for concern, or those who object to their consideration too powerful to oppose, or what? If a concern for liberals is care for those who are weak and less able to care for or defend themselves, then surely the exclusion of defense for the unborn needs to be explained and defended. I understand that it is a principle of liberalism (and an admirable principle indeed) to give voice to the voiceless and those who have not been heard. Justify the liberal silencing of those who would advocate for the unborn. Justify your dismissal of concern about abortion as just another annoyance.


I can kind of understand the annoyance at being called upon to defend the indefensible. I certainly would not like to try to defend in the name of advocating for the weak, the dependent, the marginalized, denying any consideration for the weakest, most dependent, furthest marginalized.


I imagine that back in the Antebellum America, slave owners felt similar annoyance and frustration in continually being confronted with the calls of the abolitionists to abolish slavery. It was a settled issue, enshrined in law, defended by the American Constitution and Supreme Court decisions, a lynch pin of the Southern way of life. It was also in accord with their understanding of Scripture. They had carefully and prayerfully studied the Holy Writ and come to the understanding and interpretation of the Holy Book that slavery was supported, maybe even commanded in its pages. What gave the abolitionists the right to come and try to impose their religious beliefs on the slave owners? If they did not want slavery, the answer was simple, they should not have slaves! Nobody was trying to force slaves upon them. They could do their own thing their own way and leave civilized, God-fearing, Southern Gentlemen alone to live their own way according to their beliefs.


So, I can understand your annoyance at the abortion question coming up, in your mind it is settled and its sleeping place should not be disturbed.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Matt Hummel

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2020, 05:55:39 PM »

Still waiting for an explanation to help me understand why in their stated concern for the weakest members of the community, abortion is not an issue, an issue simply to be dismissed.


So here is how people responded almost instantly:
A couple of those damned liberals said, “yeah, that’s us.” And then... And then....! Wait for it...!
-Liberalism isn’t truly liberal.
-Abortion! Abortion! (That’s all that matters)
-Ho hum, old stuff, yawn
-Well, we know Ron Howard is...
-“pure boilerplate”. So what?
That’s not an auspicious beginning of a discussion, is it? Oh, I forgot, someone also said this humble correspondent is ignorant and he doesn’t want to discuss things with me.
OK
The first principle: "1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. Period."


How does a discussion of abortion not fit into this principle?


Quote
-Abortion! Abortion! (That’s all that matters)

I can understand you not wanting this to be discussed. No that is not all that matters, care for children, the disabled, sick, and elderly are important no dispute about that, but defend excluding the unborn from this list of those who lack power and ability to care for themselves and thus need others to care, defend, and advocate for them. Are they not important enough for concern, or those who object to their consideration too powerful to oppose, or what? If a concern for liberals is care for those who are weak and less able to care for or defend themselves, then surely the exclusion of defense for the unborn needs to be explained and defended. I understand that it is a principle of liberalism (and an admirable principle indeed) to give voice to the voiceless and those who have not been heard. Justify the liberal silencing of those who would advocate for the unborn. Justify your dismissal of concern about abortion as just another annoyance.


I can kind of understand the annoyance at being called upon to defend the indefensible. I certainly would not like to try to defend in the name of advocating for the weak, the dependent, the marginalized, denying any consideration for the weakest, most dependent, furthest marginalized.


I imagine that back in the Antebellum America, slave owners felt similar annoyance and frustration in continually being confronted with the calls of the abolitionists to abolish slavery. It was a settled issue, enshrined in law, defended by the American Constitution and Supreme Court decisions, a lynch pin of the Southern way of life. It was also in accord with their understanding of Scripture. They had carefully and prayerfully studied the Holy Writ and come to the understanding and interpretation of the Holy Book that slavery was supported, maybe even commanded in its pages. What gave the abolitionists the right to come and try to impose their religious beliefs on the slave owners? If they did not want slavery, the answer was simple, they should not have slaves! Nobody was trying to force slaves upon them. They could do their own thing their own way and leave civilized, God-fearing, Southern Gentlemen alone to live their own way according to their beliefs.


So, I can understand your annoyance at the abortion question coming up, in your mind it is settled and its sleeping place should not be disturbed.

So much liking! It has been said that history does not repeat itself, but that it does rhyme. And the blindness of so many “liberals” and “progressives” to the evil of abortion because it is “settled” is disturbingly akin to reading the defense of slavery.
Matt Hummel


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DCharlton

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2020, 05:59:12 PM »
I think that is a list of nice sentiments, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a liberal, at least with classic liberalism.  In many ways, the statement could be construed as a rejection of liberalism.
Do you also disagree with this post on "classical liberal principles"? https://theihs.org/news/core-classical-liberal-principles/?gclid=CjwKCAjw8pH3BRAXEiwA1pvMsWhsYY9B65NVutYzXoLaJB0wCayxvJioWx4npc0OSSFV445Z9YLJChoCVYsQAvD_BwE

"Also?"  You do realize, Brian, that Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal," one that you say you identify with, is quite different from the description of classical liberalism offered by the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University.

Steven P. Tibbetts, citizen


Did you read the article from Brittanica? Liberalism has undergone changes. A communication problems exists when the opponents are thinking we're talking about the "classical liberalism" when we are actually talking about issues like those in Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal."

The communication problem existed on only one side.  I was making a comparison between what the word liberalism traditionally meant and what it means today.  My mistake was assuming that people on this forum would be aware of both meanings. 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 06:05:39 PM by DCharlton »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2020, 06:30:36 PM »
I think that is a list of nice sentiments, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a liberal, at least with classic liberalism.  In many ways, the statement could be construed as a rejection of liberalism.
Do you also disagree with this post on "classical liberal principles"? https://theihs.org/news/core-classical-liberal-principles/?gclid=CjwKCAjw8pH3BRAXEiwA1pvMsWhsYY9B65NVutYzXoLaJB0wCayxvJioWx4npc0OSSFV445Z9YLJChoCVYsQAvD_BwE

"Also?"  You do realize, Brian, that Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal," one that you say you identify with, is quite different from the description of classical liberalism offered by the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University.

Steven P. Tibbetts, citizen


Did you read the article from Brittanica? Liberalism has undergone changes. A communication problems exists when the opponents are thinking we're talking about the "classical liberalism" when we are actually talking about issues like those in Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal."

The communication problem existed on only one side.  I was making a comparison between what the word liberalism traditionally meant and what it means today.  My mistake was assuming that people on this forum would be aware of both meanings.


It was very clear in the article what she meant by "liberalism." Perhaps it's not the classic liberalism, but it is what it has become.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2020, 06:35:02 PM »
If what it means to be a liberal has shifted and it no longer means exactly the same as it was, then please, in the name of clarity and fairness, if I do not agree with everything that liberalism has become accuse me of being against the personal liberty and freedoms that liberalism was originally about because i reject what liberalism has become. You cannot have it both ways. If you try, you are cheating and your position is demagoguery.
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DCharlton

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2020, 08:50:39 PM »
I think that is a list of nice sentiments, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a liberal, at least with classic liberalism.  In many ways, the statement could be construed as a rejection of liberalism.
Do you also disagree with this post on "classical liberal principles"? https://theihs.org/news/core-classical-liberal-principles/?gclid=CjwKCAjw8pH3BRAXEiwA1pvMsWhsYY9B65NVutYzXoLaJB0wCayxvJioWx4npc0OSSFV445Z9YLJChoCVYsQAvD_BwE

"Also?"  You do realize, Brian, that Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal," one that you say you identify with, is quite different from the description of classical liberalism offered by the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University.

Steven P. Tibbetts, citizen


Did you read the article from Brittanica? Liberalism has undergone changes. A communication problems exists when the opponents are thinking we're talking about the "classical liberalism" when we are actually talking about issues like those in Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal."

The communication problem existed on only one side.  I was making a comparison between what the word liberalism traditionally meant and what it means today.  My mistake was assuming that people on this forum would be aware of both meanings.

It was very clear in the article what she meant by "liberalism." Perhaps it's not the classic liberalism, but it is what it has become.

Welcome aboard.  I think most of us knew that at the beginning.  I'm glad to caught up with the rest of us.
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2020, 08:55:02 PM »

Liberalism has undergone changes. A communication problems exists when the opponents are thinking we're talking about the "classical liberalism" when we are actually talking about issues like those in Mrs. Witt's description of "liberal."

Until you introduced the Institute's description of classical liberalism, using phrasing that usually indicates a comparison rather than a contrast, no one posting on this topic -- with the possible exception of you -- was having any communication problems with your, Mr. Howard's, and Mrs. Witt's expression of being an early-21st century "liberal."

spt+
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David Garner

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Re: I Am a Liberal
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2020, 03:16:58 PM »
Fun fact: I know a few actual Marxists.  They say the word "liberal" like they are spitting something foul from their mouth.  They despise liberals.  It's one reason I do not take Republicans seriously who say President Obama and VP Biden and Mrs. Clinton are "socialists."  They aren't.  Socialists can't stand them either.  What they are is left-moderates who believe in neoconservative foreign policy, marginally higher taxes on high income earners, and embrace leftist social values. 

Bernie Sanders is a socialist.  Those folks are all milquetoast liberals.  One I know refers to them as "bourgeoisie liberals," which I find to be a very, very accurate assessment.  It's what Republicans used to call "limousine liberals."  They drive a Prius and live in a house that costs 3 times what mine does, but they are so much more in touch with the little people to hear them tell it.  Meanwhile, for all their superficial diversity in their circle of friends, few of them actually know someone who swings a hammer or turns a wrench for a living.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).