Author Topic: White Fragility  (Read 15829 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2020, 12:36:31 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
You really should proofread, your response as printed makes little sense, although I think I can figure it out. Yes, fringe elements have a voice too, so why should the rest of us not be allowed to voice our opinions of what the fringe elements say?
Me:
Yes, I should. My apologies for dictating an answer on the run. You do know that sometimes even we old folks have to run to various duties.

Pastor Fienen:
Fringe elements regularly call us racist, homophobic, xenophobic, and other pathologies, can't we call them unrealistic or uninformed?
Me:
Call them whatever you want. But rather than calling them anything, why not take their complaints seriously? Why not stick to dialogue? Why not say, well you’re over there and we’re over here how can we move closer together?
It’s almost playground language to say “Wah wah! He called me a bad name!” And then say you’re not gonna play with him anymore.
This is more serious than a playground spat. You keep looking for reasons not to have dialogue, you keep not taking other’s complaint seriously, that’s not good.
NoW you are about to respond, “but they do it too!” Boring. We have to move beyond that. Maybe you could be the one party to do it.
But I doubt it.
I have a hard time understanding how what you post to me actually responds to the general tenor of what I've posted. Are you sure you are actually responding to me and not someone else. You do at times respond to me for what someone else posted. 


How have I indicated an unwillingness to dialogue or an unwillingness to listen to the complaints of others and take them seriously? Please, point it out. There has been some discussion of just what is meant by defunding or dismantling the police. First you scold us for taking the heated rhetoric of demonstrations as serious proposals/demands. Then when it is pointed out that people are saying just that, you dismiss that as just fringe elements that apparently we should not respond to.


I do take the dialogue that is essential for a working democracy seriously. I listen to the complaints and consider what merits that I find in them. Sure, I point out what seems to me to be inadequate about the reasoning behind the complaints, and how what is being proposed may not actually accomplish all that they suggest it may accomplish. I thought that was dialogue. Perhaps dialogue in your understanding is that those who demonstrate talk and the rest of us just shut up and go along.


I find merit in some of the proposals for reform in policing that have been suggested.  As I posted:



Certainly, policing can and should be improved. Having mental health professionals to respond to mental health issues rather than, or in addition to, the police sounds like a very good idea. I think that we really need to rethink the militarization of the police as well as the SWAT utilization. We also need to look at the roots of poverty and work on that. Some of these roots, seems to me, are poor educational opportunities, the need to teach children the skills that will assist them in getting and holding jobs. Employment opportunities need to be increased.



Was that me dismissing those who are calling for defunding the police out of hand and ignoring their complaints and suggestions?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 02:42:43 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2020, 12:48:33 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke


I'm all for giving these kinds of approaches a try.  They may well bear substantial fruit.  But part of the solution must also be found in the lessons of the late 1990s, when violent crime in New York plummeted.  I hope and pray that the programs with which you and others are involved bring new and fruitful cooperation between the police and the communities they serve.  But vigilant law enforcement must be part of the equation if those communities are to be protected.  During this current stretch, the new programs are not in place and the police have been pulled back from law enforcement.  The results have not been good as violent crime has spiked.

The program that gained the most attention in the Giuliani era was the attention paid to nuisance issues - the guys who washed car windows on the street corner were given misdemeanor summonses, etc.  In our part of the world, the high crime zone, what the police who weren't on the take would do is stop all traffic at certain areas and then check the license plates for violations like parking tickets, use that as the way to search the car, and take it from there.  So they did that on Sunday from 9-12.  Because the idea was the evildoers were just then coming from the clubs and would be half asleep and fall for the trap.  But - this made it impossible for any of our folks with cars to get to church.  We got them to stop doing that at that time and on those corners, after lengthy negotiations.  We were being punished by a police tactic.

My opinion is that bad guys should be in jail, that gun control is absolutely necessary in a big city connected to strict laws with enforcement on those who violate those laws.  And that's what in my opinion actually drove crime down.  People who had done the bad stuff paid for it.  People who were carrying around weapons without reason paid with jail sentences.  The nuisance stuff was not my favorite at all, because in many cases it just hassled homeless people, of which we have plenty in our neighborhood who mostly need a place to lay their heads at night.

Dave Benke

Something worthy of note or of consideration regarding this conversation is that many who are protesting only know the drastic impact of police militarization.  Many were born in the mid-late 90s so the idea of a crime-laden city is mostly foreign to them which could also prove to be their Achilles’ heel.  It’s a weird pendulum change so to say.  I was born in 82, grew up on the Yonkers/Bronx borderline and have very distinct memories of that period from my childhood.  In the summers my mom would often take me to the park in Woodlawn (The Bronx) because it had a sprinkler and was a big park.  On the short walk to the park up Van Cortlandt Park East there were always burnt out and abandoned cars on the side of the street.  The park itself always smelled of dried pee, specifically around the bathroom area.  To this day when I smell dried pee I think of NYC.  Not to mention the fact that this strip of street was notorious for being a place where bodies would be dumped because it was a long wooded area.  I also spent my childhood years playing little league baseball in these parks which weren’t really maintained at all. I also remember the car window cleaners that you speak of, they were everywhere.  I haven’t seen one in over 25 years.  Also, everything was grafittied. Back in the late 80s/early 90s we only went to day games at Yankee Stadium because the neighborhood was considered unsafe.  George Steinbrenner would often threaten to move the Yankees because of the neighborhood, it’s funny how that conversation has been completely forgotten with a new stadium eventually being built.  There was even talk of moving the Yankees to Yonkers which thrilled my 10 year old baseball loving heart.  I even remember our car getting broken into, though, “they” were obviously unsuccessful in stealing it which was def the goal. These things were just a normal part of growing up in NYC or the NYC area.  In some ways I am grateful for the experience, however strange it may seem to outsiders.  It really was a different world then.  I have many more such memories.

Peace,
Scott+
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 12:50:41 PM by Rev Geminn »

Julio

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2020, 12:51:50 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke


I'm all for giving these kinds of approaches a try.  They may well bear substantial fruit.  But part of the solution must also be found in the lessons of the late 1990s, when violent crime in New York plummeted.  I hope and pray that the programs with which you and others are involved bring new and fruitful cooperation between the police and the communities they serve.  But vigilant law enforcement must be part of the equation if those communities are to be protected.  During this current stretch, the new programs are not in place and the police have been pulled back from law enforcement.  The results have not been good as violent crime has spiked.

The program that gained the most attention in the Giuliani era was the attention paid to nuisance issues - the guys who washed car windows on the street corner were given misdemeanor summonses, etc.  In our part of the world, the high crime zone, what the police who weren't on the take would do is stop all traffic at certain areas and then check the license plates for violations like parking tickets, use that as the way to search the car, and take it from there.  So they did that on Sunday from 9-12.  Because the idea was the evildoers were just then coming from the clubs and would be half asleep and fall for the trap.  But - this made it impossible for any of our folks with cars to get to church.  We got them to stop doing that at that time and on those corners, after lengthy negotiations.  We were being punished by a police tactic.

My opinion is that bad guys should be in jail, that gun control is absolutely necessary in a big city connected to strict laws with enforcement on those who violate those laws.  And that's what in my opinion actually drove crime down.  People who had done the bad stuff paid for it.  People who were carrying around weapons without reason paid with jail sentences.  The nuisance stuff was not my favorite at all, because in many cases it just hassled homeless people, of which we have plenty in our neighborhood who mostly need a place to lay their heads at night.

Dave Benke
Not good to keep your saints from their church home ... but there has to be enforcement of parking laws for them to be effective. My city doesn’t enforce graffiti laws ... and it is quite evident .. including all the vulgarities these selfish law breaker use.

Some time ago my neighbor was late to church because his drive way was blocked. Lives are threatened when failure to enforce parking laws encourages law breakers to block driveways and other essential areas.

What will happen to your good Explorer program .. hopefully they will not throw the baby out with the bath water.  If the “old school” retires and is replaced be the “new school” why defund? The remaining good officers as evidenced by your explorer program?

Gracias!

Julio
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 01:16:15 PM by Julio »

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2020, 12:54:29 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke


I'm all for giving these kinds of approaches a try.  They may well bear substantial fruit.  But part of the solution must also be found in the lessons of the late 1990s, when violent crime in New York plummeted.  I hope and pray that the programs with which you and others are involved bring new and fruitful cooperation between the police and the communities they serve.  But vigilant law enforcement must be part of the equation if those communities are to be protected.  During this current stretch, the new programs are not in place and the police have been pulled back from law enforcement.  The results have not been good as violent crime has spiked.

The program that gained the most attention in the Giuliani era was the attention paid to nuisance issues - the guys who washed car windows on the street corner were given misdemeanor summonses, etc.  In our part of the world, the high crime zone, what the police who weren't on the take would do is stop all traffic at certain areas and then check the license plates for violations like parking tickets, use that as the way to search the car, and take it from there.  So they did that on Sunday from 9-12.  Because the idea was the evildoers were just then coming from the clubs and would be half asleep and fall for the trap.  But - this made it impossible for any of our folks with cars to get to church.  We got them to stop doing that at that time and on those corners, after lengthy negotiations.  We were being punished by a police tactic.

My opinion is that bad guys should be in jail, that gun control is absolutely necessary in a big city connected to strict laws with enforcement on those who violate those laws.  And that's what in my opinion actually drove crime down.  People who had done the bad stuff paid for it.  People who were carrying around weapons without reason paid with jail sentences.  The nuisance stuff was not my favorite at all, because in many cases it just hassled homeless people, of which we have plenty in our neighborhood who mostly need a place to lay their heads at night.

Dave Benke


It does sound as if you confronted some inappropriate police behavior in the 1990s.  I'll just say that I experienced those years very differently.  But admittedly my perspective was as a Manhattan resident. 


One thing about those years is clear, though.  Violent crime dropped markedly.  Something was working even other things were not.

Dave Benke

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2020, 01:29:42 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke


I'm all for giving these kinds of approaches a try.  They may well bear substantial fruit.  But part of the solution must also be found in the lessons of the late 1990s, when violent crime in New York plummeted.  I hope and pray that the programs with which you and others are involved bring new and fruitful cooperation between the police and the communities they serve.  But vigilant law enforcement must be part of the equation if those communities are to be protected.  During this current stretch, the new programs are not in place and the police have been pulled back from law enforcement.  The results have not been good as violent crime has spiked.

The program that gained the most attention in the Giuliani era was the attention paid to nuisance issues - the guys who washed car windows on the street corner were given misdemeanor summonses, etc.  In our part of the world, the high crime zone, what the police who weren't on the take would do is stop all traffic at certain areas and then check the license plates for violations like parking tickets, use that as the way to search the car, and take it from there.  So they did that on Sunday from 9-12.  Because the idea was the evildoers were just then coming from the clubs and would be half asleep and fall for the trap.  But - this made it impossible for any of our folks with cars to get to church.  We got them to stop doing that at that time and on those corners, after lengthy negotiations.  We were being punished by a police tactic.

My opinion is that bad guys should be in jail, that gun control is absolutely necessary in a big city connected to strict laws with enforcement on those who violate those laws.  And that's what in my opinion actually drove crime down.  People who had done the bad stuff paid for it.  People who were carrying around weapons without reason paid with jail sentences.  The nuisance stuff was not my favorite at all, because in many cases it just hassled homeless people, of which we have plenty in our neighborhood who mostly need a place to lay their heads at night.

Dave Benke


It does sound as if you confronted some inappropriate police behavior in the 1990s.  I'll just say that I experienced those years very differently.  But admittedly my perspective was as a Manhattan resident. 


One thing about those years is clear, though.  Violent crime dropped markedly.  Something was working even other things were not.

a) it's way way better than it used to be here.  And some of that goes to Rudy.  Who is more than an acquaintance to me on a personal level.  And who I voted for twice.  I have a lovely letter of support from him as the Mayor who called on religious and community leaders to hold a civic event at Yankee Stadium on September 23, 2001.  Which we did, at his request.
b) view the documentary The 75, and watch Michael Dowd and his partner crowing about their relationship to the drug dealers.  The corners they mention on Fulton Street are within a chip shot of St. Peter's and a seven iron from our home.  Meaning people died because these cops were taking money from drugs not to catch anybody. 

Dave Benke

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2020, 01:52:04 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke


I'm all for giving these kinds of approaches a try.  They may well bear substantial fruit.  But part of the solution must also be found in the lessons of the late 1990s, when violent crime in New York plummeted.  I hope and pray that the programs with which you and others are involved bring new and fruitful cooperation between the police and the communities they serve.  But vigilant law enforcement must be part of the equation if those communities are to be protected.  During this current stretch, the new programs are not in place and the police have been pulled back from law enforcement.  The results have not been good as violent crime has spiked.

The program that gained the most attention in the Giuliani era was the attention paid to nuisance issues - the guys who washed car windows on the street corner were given misdemeanor summonses, etc.  In our part of the world, the high crime zone, what the police who weren't on the take would do is stop all traffic at certain areas and then check the license plates for violations like parking tickets, use that as the way to search the car, and take it from there.  So they did that on Sunday from 9-12.  Because the idea was the evildoers were just then coming from the clubs and would be half asleep and fall for the trap.  But - this made it impossible for any of our folks with cars to get to church.  We got them to stop doing that at that time and on those corners, after lengthy negotiations.  We were being punished by a police tactic.

My opinion is that bad guys should be in jail, that gun control is absolutely necessary in a big city connected to strict laws with enforcement on those who violate those laws.  And that's what in my opinion actually drove crime down.  People who had done the bad stuff paid for it.  People who were carrying around weapons without reason paid with jail sentences.  The nuisance stuff was not my favorite at all, because in many cases it just hassled homeless people, of which we have plenty in our neighborhood who mostly need a place to lay their heads at night.

Dave Benke


It does sound as if you confronted some inappropriate police behavior in the 1990s.  I'll just say that I experienced those years very differently.  But admittedly my perspective was as a Manhattan resident. 


One thing about those years is clear, though.  Violent crime dropped markedly.  Something was working even other things were not.

a) it's way way better than it used to be here.  And some of that goes to Rudy.  Who is more than an acquaintance to me on a personal level.  And who I voted for twice.  I have a lovely letter of support from him as the Mayor who called on religious and community leaders to hold a civic event at Yankee Stadium on September 23, 2001.  Which we did, at his request.
b) view the documentary The 75, and watch Michael Dowd and his partner crowing about their relationship to the drug dealers.  The corners they mention on Fulton Street are within a chip shot of St. Peter's and a seven iron from our home.  Meaning people died because these cops were taking money from drugs not to catch anybody. 

Dave Benke


I will track down the documentary.


I lived in NYC in 2001 and remember the Yankee Stadium gathering.  (I also was very aware of the aftermath.  I followed developments over the long months that followed.)

Dave Benke

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2020, 02:41:29 PM »
A little side note about the old days and times in NYC concerning the Times, that is, the New York Times.  In the 70s-80s and through the 90s, the last person you would expect to see in the outer boroughs and in the tougher parts of the outer boroughs in particular was a reporter from the Times.  The tabloids were tasked with that, in particular the Daily News.  So Jimmy Breslin knew all the outer borough locations according to which Roman Catholic parish was represented n which neighborhood.  Ocean Hill - Our Lady of Presentation.  Brownsville - Our Lady of Mercy.  Ridgewood - Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal (we lived down the block from Miraculous Medal when we first moved to NY), etc. etc.  And he knew people and politicians in all of those outer borough areas.  The Times - not only not so much.  Not at all. 

So for the Times to take this ginormous leap now into the rewriting of history through the eyes of black people strikes an old-timer such as me as a johnny-come-lately move, inauthentic.  And when it comes to the Pro-life movement and the percentages of abortions to black mothers including here in this city, NYC, nary a mention - ever. 

Anyway, when East Brooklyn Churches got the Nehemiah Plan going back in the early-mid 80s, with full ecumenical commitments, somebody from the Times showed up for one of our rallies, which drew around 10,000 people.  And all us locals said, "they finally found their way out here to East New York and Brownsville.  I wonder if they know how to get back to the City (Manhattan)?"

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2020, 03:01:32 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke


I'm all for giving these kinds of approaches a try.  They may well bear substantial fruit.  But part of the solution must also be found in the lessons of the late 1990s, when violent crime in New York plummeted.  I hope and pray that the programs with which you and others are involved bring new and fruitful cooperation between the police and the communities they serve.  But vigilant law enforcement must be part of the equation if those communities are to be protected.  During this current stretch, the new programs are not in place and the police have been pulled back from law enforcement.  The results have not been good as violent crime has spiked.

The program that gained the most attention in the Giuliani era was the attention paid to nuisance issues - the guys who washed car windows on the street corner were given misdemeanor summonses, etc.  In our part of the world, the high crime zone, what the police who weren't on the take would do is stop all traffic at certain areas and then check the license plates for violations like parking tickets, use that as the way to search the car, and take it from there.  So they did that on Sunday from 9-12.  Because the idea was the evildoers were just then coming from the clubs and would be half asleep and fall for the trap.  But - this made it impossible for any of our folks with cars to get to church.  We got them to stop doing that at that time and on those corners, after lengthy negotiations.  We were being punished by a police tactic.

My opinion is that bad guys should be in jail, that gun control is absolutely necessary in a big city connected to strict laws with enforcement on those who violate those laws.  And that's what in my opinion actually drove crime down.  People who had done the bad stuff paid for it.  People who were carrying around weapons without reason paid with jail sentences.  The nuisance stuff was not my favorite at all, because in many cases it just hassled homeless people, of which we have plenty in our neighborhood who mostly need a place to lay their heads at night.

Dave Benke


It does sound as if you confronted some inappropriate police behavior in the 1990s.  I'll just say that I experienced those years very differently.  But admittedly my perspective was as a Manhattan resident. 


One thing about those years is clear, though.  Violent crime dropped markedly.  Something was working even other things were not.

a) it's way way better than it used to be here.  And some of that goes to Rudy.  Who is more than an acquaintance to me on a personal level.  And who I voted for twice.  I have a lovely letter of support from him as the Mayor who called on religious and community leaders to hold a civic event at Yankee Stadium on September 23, 2001.  Which we did, at his request.
b) view the documentary The 75, and watch Michael Dowd and his partner crowing about their relationship to the drug dealers.  The corners they mention on Fulton Street are within a chip shot of St. Peter's and a seven iron from our home.  Meaning people died because these cops were taking money from drugs not to catch anybody. 

Dave Benke


I will track down the documentary.


I lived in NYC in 2001 and remember the Yankee Stadium gathering.  (I also was very aware of the aftermath.  I followed developments over the long months that followed.)

It's on Netflix.

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2020, 03:36:33 PM »
I came across this comment over at Reason in a posting about the Harper's Anti-Cancel culture open letter.  I like how it pushes back on this idea that "other voices" deserve to be heard because white males have had more than there fair share of the conversation.  Earlier (on another thread) someone mocked the idea of Marxist suppositions, but this is really one of them:  that I don't deserve to speak because (as this post says), white men a hundred years ago used up my time.  Treating people according to an arbitrary category is Marxist and contrary to individual liberty.

I am happy to listen to other voices.  The problem may be the content of their speech, not the category in which they self-identify.  The correctness of an idea should not be dependent on the category in which that person might be placed.

Being white or male does not mean your voice was used in the name if whiteness or maleness. It is actually very possible, and likely, that a large number of voices that happened to come from whites and males, were used on the behalf of universalist ideas such as equal rights, equal standing before the law, etc. An example would be any white male speaking for free speech rights. To impose meaning onto the message because of the genetics of the speakers says volumes about your commitment to judging people on character and merit rather than race or gender. And simply because a white man 100 years ago spoke does not invalidate my right to speak or the validity of my arguments. That people are even talking about intersectionality or whatever progressive claptrap is the topic of the day proves that there IS a voice for the historically ignored. Fredrick Douglass lived as a slave, the lowest station a black man has held in American society. And during that era… he was able to eventually have a voice that went directly to the ear of the President. Some 200 years later a black man was president himself. MLK is taught to every school child. Both of them have had a voice on the topic far outweighing mine. Do I get to claim a spot at the table and special pleading to be heard? Or, perhaps, we buy into freedom of speech and NO ONE gets special pleading. Minorities are heard more today than they ever have been. In fact, they are heard from in respectable circles (universities, news rooms, refined public conversations, etc.) than young white men who feel disaffected by the pendulum swinging from white supremacy to an inverse rather than a neutralization. I was told as a kid that we are all equal. I took that to heart. And now that I am older I am treated with disdain because of my race… that I already had my say (even if no one spoke my message… I am white therefore any white man 200 years already used up my clock). I am befuddled. I feel cheated… I spent my life not judging people by their race. I listened to them, laughed with them, fought with them, loved with them. But now those who are the self-proclaimed champions of equality and anti-racism do not treat me in kind. I was either lied to and treating people based on skin tone is right… or these people who do it today are wrong. Both positions can’t be right at the same time. At least one position is morally bankrupt. From studying history I am quite confident I know which one.

Personally I don't share his expressed grievance mentality--maybe because I have not experienced it as intensively as this person.  But I think there are some who do, and it points out the fallacy that white males always have power.  Those that don't (especially working class whites who come from families that never sent anyone to college) are angry and bitter about being disparaged because large numbers in the racial category are (more) successful and people attribute that success to racial identity.   I suspect many of them were Obama voters who switched allegiance to Trump in 2016.  I can't believe they are happy about being accused of responsibility for systematic racism when they have never had any power in their lives.  If that's fragility to some, I suggest they reconsider their frame of reference.

To further illustrate my point, I'd suggest watching this SNL Black Jeopardy skit with contestant Tom Hanks (wearing a MAGA hat).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 03:56:29 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2020, 04:35:26 PM »
And you are all fearful that the fringe element will prevail?
No confidence at all in our democratic process?

Gaslighting.  First you deny it exists.  Then you pretend we are all lunatics for pointing out that it does, in fact, exist.

Can you please just try being honest?
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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2020, 06:17:45 PM »
A little side note about the old days and times in NYC concerning the Times, that is, the New York Times.  In the 70s-80s and through the 90s, the last person you would expect to see in the outer boroughs and in the tougher parts of the outer boroughs in particular was a reporter from the Times.  The tabloids were tasked with that, in particular the Daily News.  So Jimmy Breslin knew all the outer borough locations according to which Roman Catholic parish was represented n which neighborhood.  Ocean Hill - Our Lady of Presentation.  Brownsville - Our Lady of Mercy.  Ridgewood - Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal (we lived down the block from Miraculous Medal when we first moved to NY), etc. etc.  And he knew people and politicians in all of those outer borough areas.  The Times - not only not so much.  Not at all. 

So for the Times to take this ginormous leap now into the rewriting of history through the eyes of black people strikes an old-timer such as me as a johnny-come-lately move, inauthentic.  And when it comes to the Pro-life movement and the percentages of abortions to black mothers including here in this city, NYC, nary a mention - ever. 

Anyway, when East Brooklyn Churches got the Nehemiah Plan going back in the early-mid 80s, with full ecumenical commitments, somebody from the Times showed up for one of our rallies, which drew around 10,000 people.  And all us locals said, "they finally found their way out here to East New York and Brownsville.  I wonder if they know how to get back to the City (Manhattan)?"

Dave Benke


I rarely get back to NYC.  If I ever am there on a weekend, I'd love to come worship with you and your congregation.  The best part of travel is listening to and learning from people whose experiences are different.  Sometimes that travel is to the other side of the globe.  And sometimes the other side of the river.

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2020, 06:18:41 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke


I'm all for giving these kinds of approaches a try.  They may well bear substantial fruit.  But part of the solution must also be found in the lessons of the late 1990s, when violent crime in New York plummeted.  I hope and pray that the programs with which you and others are involved bring new and fruitful cooperation between the police and the communities they serve.  But vigilant law enforcement must be part of the equation if those communities are to be protected.  During this current stretch, the new programs are not in place and the police have been pulled back from law enforcement.  The results have not been good as violent crime has spiked.

The program that gained the most attention in the Giuliani era was the attention paid to nuisance issues - the guys who washed car windows on the street corner were given misdemeanor summonses, etc.  In our part of the world, the high crime zone, what the police who weren't on the take would do is stop all traffic at certain areas and then check the license plates for violations like parking tickets, use that as the way to search the car, and take it from there.  So they did that on Sunday from 9-12.  Because the idea was the evildoers were just then coming from the clubs and would be half asleep and fall for the trap.  But - this made it impossible for any of our folks with cars to get to church.  We got them to stop doing that at that time and on those corners, after lengthy negotiations.  We were being punished by a police tactic.

My opinion is that bad guys should be in jail, that gun control is absolutely necessary in a big city connected to strict laws with enforcement on those who violate those laws.  And that's what in my opinion actually drove crime down.  People who had done the bad stuff paid for it.  People who were carrying around weapons without reason paid with jail sentences.  The nuisance stuff was not my favorite at all, because in many cases it just hassled homeless people, of which we have plenty in our neighborhood who mostly need a place to lay their heads at night.

Dave Benke


It does sound as if you confronted some inappropriate police behavior in the 1990s.  I'll just say that I experienced those years very differently.  But admittedly my perspective was as a Manhattan resident. 


One thing about those years is clear, though.  Violent crime dropped markedly.  Something was working even other things were not.

a) it's way way better than it used to be here.  And some of that goes to Rudy.  Who is more than an acquaintance to me on a personal level.  And who I voted for twice.  I have a lovely letter of support from him as the Mayor who called on religious and community leaders to hold a civic event at Yankee Stadium on September 23, 2001.  Which we did, at his request.
b) view the documentary The 75, and watch Michael Dowd and his partner crowing about their relationship to the drug dealers.  The corners they mention on Fulton Street are within a chip shot of St. Peter's and a seven iron from our home.  Meaning people died because these cops were taking money from drugs not to catch anybody. 

Dave Benke


I will track down the documentary.


I lived in NYC in 2001 and remember the Yankee Stadium gathering.  (I also was very aware of the aftermath.  I followed developments over the long months that followed.)

It's on Netflix.


That makes it easy.  Thanks for letting me know.

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2020, 08:29:24 PM »
Thugs and criminals are thugs and criminals. They are not protesters.  And they have harmed the lives of who knows how many innocent people.  But for the left it's always you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.  As long as we don't know any of the eggs we can be smug and think ourselves morally enlightened.  But it's really just nonsense.  Anyone who thinks crimes are acceptable during the early phases of a movement shouldn't bother calling for help when the movement comes for them.  Charles' argument reminds me of Durant of the NY Times covering for the butchers in Russia and who knows how many Germans making excuses for Hitler and his National Socialist "movement. (ref. Rev. Niemoller)
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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2020, 09:17:37 PM »
I was very young when MLK was assassinated, so I have no living memory of him or his work.  That said, I know that he was committed to non-violent protests.  And some can correct me, but I don't recall hearing from him or those around him the kind of 'labeling' and shaming that seems to be a part of what is going on now.  This thread is evidence of that: "white fragility." The word "fragile" is not positive and not intended to be. It implies people who are overly sensitive and defensive.  Those people exist, but to label all who are "white" with the word "fragile" is a no-starter for many.  Likewise with the misuse of the word "white supremacy."  I can't imagine that MLK would approve either of the violence and destruction and vandalism that became so prevalent in the wake of George Floyd's murder. And I don't think that he would engage in public shaming for shaming sake. But maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe there is more to MLK that I don't know.

Perhaps one side of this issue has already written the other off and are looking only to convince those who have shown prior support. But right now dialogue is hard when the rhetoric among some is inflammatory and demeaning.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 09:21:14 PM by D. Engebretson »
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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2020, 09:35:08 PM »
For heaven’s sake! The people I cited were far from butchers. They took suffering upon themselves for the sake of their movement.
Yes, they did criminal things. So did the people who sat in at lunch counters in the American south in the 1960s. The unjust punishment and treatment they received made a point.
Were Dr. King and Ralph Abernathy and Stokely Carmichael thugs and criminals?

apples and oranges Charles, but you knew that.  Dr. King himself was specifically, unabashedly, and outspoken AGAINST violence.  But you knew that as well.


Quote
Or did their actions show us, in ways we could not avoid, the injustices that needed correction?
Almost no one took opposition to the Vietnam war seriously until Demonstrators took to the streets and young men began resisting the draft.
“Criminals”? Technically, yes. And I knew a few of them, A couple of them solid Lutherans.
Do you equate the millions of people who were in the streets these last couple of months with Stalinists and Nazis?

Do YOU justify the deaths of over 30 people in the Floyd Aftermath, the deaths in CHOP, the shooting of the little girl (who happened to be black) in Atlanta BY other black protesters, the hundreds dead on big city streets since the calls to "defund/abolish" the police?  Do you justify the wanton destruction of monuments, many of whom were those who bled and fought to end slavery in America?

Good grief, you often come across as rabidly insane in your thinking.  Here's a fact, and you can google it:  More black lives have been lost (largely at the hands of other blacks) since the George Floyd murder than were killed by police over the past 20 years.  Facts put everything into perspective.  You should try them on sometime.   >:(

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