Author Topic: White Fragility  (Read 15835 times)

David Garner

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2020, 07:47:09 AM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.
Who is being real about defunding police?? The deliberate absurdity of eliminating the police was introduced by yourself.

Seattle had CHOP ... and its murders and rape in the ‘police free zone’. Defunded police at its best.

One can only wonder what kind of anarchy will be tolerated in Seattle when they defund the police according to this newspaper article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/majority-of-seattle-council-pledges-to-support-police-department-defunding-plan-laid-out-by-advocates/%3famp=1

How many dead Seattle residents will result from their social experiment?

Buenas Noches!

Julio

“One of the things that we are demanding over five years is the complete abolition. We don’t want to see any police in our community,” Ndgo told Fox News in an interview Tuesday.

Nobody.  Nowhere.

https://www.blackenterprise.com/black-lives-matter-leader-outlines-five-year-plan-to-eliminate-police/

Granted, she goes on to say the idea is to replace police with something else, unstated, unclear, but that "safety" will not be ignored.  But she states expressly, in no uncertain terms, she wants to do exactly that which Pastor Austin says "nobody, nowhere" wants to do.

She isn't alone either.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Matt Hummel

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2020, 07:57:21 AM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.
Who is being real about defunding police?? The deliberate absurdity of eliminating the police was introduced by yourself.

Seattle had CHOP ... and its murders and rape in the ‘police free zone’. Defunded police at its best.

One can only wonder what kind of anarchy will be tolerated in Seattle when they defund the police according to this newspaper article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/majority-of-seattle-council-pledges-to-support-police-department-defunding-plan-laid-out-by-advocates/%3famp=1

How many dead Seattle residents will result from their social experiment?

Buenas Noches!

Julio

“One of the things that we are demanding over five years is the complete abolition. We don’t want to see any police in our community,” Ndgo told Fox News in an interview Tuesday.

Nobody.  Nowhere.

https://www.blackenterprise.com/black-lives-matter-leader-outlines-five-year-plan-to-eliminate-police/

Granted, she goes on to say the idea is to replace police with something else, unstated, unclear, but that "safety" will not be ignored.  But she states expressly, in no uncertain terms, she wants to do exactly that which Pastor Austin says "nobody, nowhere" wants to do.

She isn't alone either.

Now David- Who are you going to believe? Charles, or your lying eyes?
Matt Hummel


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James S. Rustad

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2020, 08:06:42 AM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.

The goal of this initiative is to shift the discussion of police violence in Minneapolis from one of procedural reforms to one of meaningful structural change. We will achieve this by presenting a practical pathway for the dismantling of the Minneapolis Police Department; the transference of its social service functions to community-based agencies and organizations; the replacement of its emergency intervention functions with models not based on military methods; and the redirection of resources to support community resilience and people-directed development.


Michael Slusser

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2020, 09:33:20 AM »
Bringing us back to Robin DiAngelo's book, White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk about Racism, I have not found anyplace where she advocates defunding the police. Maybe I just haven't tried hard enough  :o , but I suspect that she simply doesn't think that has anything to do with reducing the effects of racism.

I did find a pretty good interview https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/07/health/white-fragility-robin-diangelo-wellness/index.html, which presents the gist of her book.

Peace,
Michael
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John_Hannah

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2020, 09:34:29 AM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.
Who is being real about defunding police?? The deliberate absurdity of eliminating the police was introduced by yourself.

Seattle had CHOP ... and its murders and rape in the ‘police free zone’. Defunded police at its best.

One can only wonder what kind of anarchy will be tolerated in Seattle when they defund the police according to this newspaper article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/majority-of-seattle-council-pledges-to-support-police-department-defunding-plan-laid-out-by-advocates/%3famp=1

How many dead Seattle residents will result from their social experiment?

Buenas Noches!

Julio

The masked man rides in again, shooting his silver bullets (toxic replies)!  Hi! Ho! Silver!!!   :)

Peace, JOHN

Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dan Fienen

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2020, 09:39:14 AM »
The idea of proactively eliminating the causes of crime rather than reactively responding after crime has been committed is a very attractive one. To implement it and either eliminate the police or cut police departments by half as is being advocated will be more difficult. To eliminate the causes for crime makes two key assumptions. One is that we actually know the causes of crime, and two that the remedies for those causes that are proposed will actually work.


There are many different kinds of crime. Some are crimes of economic desperation born out of poverty. Eliminate poverty and presumably those crimes would go away. I have no idea what kind of percentage of crimes would come under that category. But there are many other crimes. Some are crimes not of desperation but of greed. It's not that the person is in desperate need but that the person is greedy for more and resorts to crime to get that more. I doubt that we can come up with a plan that would result in everybody getting as much as they want.


Eliminating poverty has been a goal of government since the 30s and the 60s. Much effort, expertise, and dollars has been spent on the effort and poverty is still with us. Even if we take it slower and propose a five year plan for eliminating the police or greatly reducing it, it would take an extreme optimist to assume that we can solve poverty and thus eliminate poverty driven crime in the next five years. The roots of poverty are many which indicates that solving poverty is not a simple solution. Simply replacing capitalism with some form of socialism or its cousin communism doesn't solve poverty. Mass starvation and the spread of poverty has followed the implementation of socialistic economies and government control in a number of large countries where it has been tried.


Poverty driven crime is only one segment of crime, although it is likely a large component of crime. Can we also readily solve the causes of crime because of mental illness, domestic abuse, anger management, interpersonal disputes, and the like? We've been working on those causes of crime for decades, centuries, millennia and they are still with us. While economic need is a major source of crime, other needs can also come into play. The greed for power over others, domination motivates some, the desire for otherwise unobtainable luxury, sexual appetites, and more. Can we realistically expect the idealists who want to eliminate police by solving the causes for crime to come up with workable programs to eliminate all of that?


Certainly, policing can and should be improved. Having mental health professionals to respond to mental health issues rather than, or in addition to, the police sounds like a very good idea. I think that we really need to rethink the militarization of the police as well as the SWAT utilization. We also need to look at the roots of poverty and work on that. Some of these roots, seems to me, are poor educational opportunities, the need to teach children the skills that will assist them in getting and holding jobs. Employment opportunities need to be increased.


But whether we call it theologically original sin, or some secular equivalent, it needs to be recognized that people are imperfect and not perfectible. Everyone is capable of doing bad things, everyone will on occasion do what they should not, and some are simply going to be bad dudes. We can reduce the causes of crime, but not eliminate them, because people are not perfectible.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Dave Benke

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2020, 09:51:29 AM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke

Matt Staneck

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2020, 09:52:20 AM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.
Who is being real about defunding police?? The deliberate absurdity of eliminating the police was introduced by yourself.

Seattle had CHOP ... and its murders and rape in the ‘police free zone’. Defunded police at its best.

One can only wonder what kind of anarchy will be tolerated in Seattle when they defund the police according to this newspaper article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/majority-of-seattle-council-pledges-to-support-police-department-defunding-plan-laid-out-by-advocates/%3famp=1

How many dead Seattle residents will result from their social experiment?

Buenas Noches!

Julio

The masked man rides in again, shooting his silver bullets (toxic replies)!  Hi! Ho! Silver!!!   :)

Peace, JOHN

I noticed that too. Someone, who has an extraordinary amount of time on their hands, is now posting as a cartoon character version of a Latino. I'm sure the irony is lost on this person that they are doing this in a thread called "White Fragility."

M. Staneck
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St. John's Evangelical Lutheran Church
Queens, NY

Dan Fienen

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2020, 09:53:24 AM »
And you are all fearful that the fringe element will prevail?
No confidence at all in our democratic process?
Part of the democratic process is discussing proposals to improve out life together. That also includes talking about and giving opinions of fringe elements? Right now, there is a super majority on the Seattle City Council committed to some form of police defunding. Does that constitute a fringe element?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

James_Gale

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2020, 10:06:29 AM »
Pastor Fienen:
Part of the democratic process is discussing proposals to improve out life together. That also includes talking about and giving opinions of fringe elements? Right now, there is a super majority on the Seattle City Council committed to some form of police defunding. Does that constitute a fringe element?
Me:
Yes. Shouldn’t the fringe elements of a voice to?


We're making progress.  Yesterday, you said that calls to defund the police were just rhetoric and was not a policy proposal that anyone was seriously considering.  This morning, you admit that this was wrong, but claim that those actually considering the defunding of the police are a "fringe element."  Of course, that fringe element controls the city councils of Seattle, Minneapolis, and elsewhere. 

James_Gale

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2020, 10:12:23 AM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke


I'm all for giving these kinds of approaches a try.  They may well bear substantial fruit.  But part of the solution must also be found in the lessons of the late 1990s, when violent crime in New York plummeted.  I hope and pray that the programs with which you and others are involved bring new and fruitful cooperation between the police and the communities they serve.  But vigilant law enforcement must be part of the equation if those communities are to be protected.  During this current stretch, the new programs are not in place and the police have been pulled back from law enforcement.  The results have not been good as violent crime has spiked.

Dan Fienen

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2020, 10:15:54 AM »
Pastor Fienen:
Part of the democratic process is discussing proposals to improve out life together. That also includes talking about and giving opinions of fringe elements? Right now, there is a super majority on the Seattle City Council committed to some form of police defunding. Does that constitute a fringe element?
Me:
Yes. Shouldn’t the fringe elements of a voice to?
You really should proofread, your response as printed makes little sense, although I think I can figure it out. Yes, fringe elements have a voice too, so why should the rest of us not be allowed to voice our opinions of what the fringe elements say? Fringe elements regularly call us racist, homophobic, xenophobic, and other pathologies, can't we call them unrealistic or uninformed?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2020, 10:23:17 AM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.
Who is being real about defunding police?? The deliberate absurdity of eliminating the police was introduced by yourself.

Seattle had CHOP ... and its murders and rape in the ‘police free zone’. Defunded police at its best.

One can only wonder what kind of anarchy will be tolerated in Seattle when they defund the police according to this newspaper article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/majority-of-seattle-council-pledges-to-support-police-department-defunding-plan-laid-out-by-advocates/%3famp=1

How many dead Seattle residents will result from their social experiment?

Buenas Noches!

Julio

The masked man rides in again, shooting his silver bullets (toxic replies)!  Hi! Ho! Silver!!!   :)

Peace, JOHN

I noticed that too. Someone, who has an extraordinary amount of time on their hands, is now posting as a cartoon character version of a Latino. I'm sure the irony is lost on this person that they are doing this in a thread called "White Fragility."

M. Staneck

Rev. Staneck and Rev. Hannah,

Why do you assume that the person posting is not Hispanic?

Julio

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2020, 10:46:13 AM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.
Who is being real about defunding police?? The deliberate absurdity of eliminating the police was introduced by yourself.

Seattle had CHOP ... and its murders and rape in the ‘police free zone’. Defunded police at its best.

One can only wonder what kind of anarchy will be tolerated in Seattle when they defund the police according to this newspaper article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/majority-of-seattle-council-pledges-to-support-police-department-defunding-plan-laid-out-by-advocates/%3famp=1

How many dead Seattle residents will result from their social experiment?

Buenas Noches!

Julio

The masked man rides in again, shooting his silver bullets (toxic replies)!  Hi! Ho! Silver!!!   :)

Peace, JOHN
‘PEACE’ ... after a toxic statement such as that???

Toxic replies ?? Padre Austin’s ‘eliminate the police’ statement was the toxic off thread comment. I NEVER suggested or used the word ‘eliminate’ ... and simply cited the Times article.

It seems that the toxic reply is attacking a newbie who disagrees with you.  Rather than attempting to discredit the Times article, it is fair game to attack the new guy?  Are you this welcoming to those who visit your congregation? Perhaps this is an example of the abuse handed out by you as a military officer ... and no I would not encourage defunding the military because of your toxic comments.

Maybe you and Padre Staneck should take a lesson in civility from Padre Benke ... his response addressed my post ...not attacked me.

I pray for you!

Julio
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 10:57:33 AM by Julio »

Dave Benke

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Re: White Fragility
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2020, 12:02:22 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Bueno, Julio - the way it works in NYC is going to be considerably different from most cities because of the size of the police force.  Several categories included police presence inside schools.  At present that's done by the School Safety Officers under the command of the police.  That was shifted to NYPD from our Department of Education some years back, and will be headed back to the DOE.  That's hundreds of millions of dollars.  School safety officers haven't had weapons at any time.  Additionally monies will be re-allocated towards more community based youth programming and counselors.  The church I serve in Brooklyn hosts the Explorers, which is an NYPD youth program designed not only to keep kids off the streets but to prepare some of them for recruitment to the NYPD.  It's led by NYPD officers in conjunction with the host group, in this case our church. 

Many officers from the "old school" are seeking retirement.  What will happen at the end of the day is that the newer recruits will understand and be trained in different policing methods in conjunction with community servants and institutions.  We will be hosting our neighborhood/sector community meeting with the NYPD again in August. 

Having been part of the crime waves of the 80s and early 90s, with rampant police corruption, this direction is to me both helpful and hopeful.

Dave Benke


I'm all for giving these kinds of approaches a try.  They may well bear substantial fruit.  But part of the solution must also be found in the lessons of the late 1990s, when violent crime in New York plummeted.  I hope and pray that the programs with which you and others are involved bring new and fruitful cooperation between the police and the communities they serve.  But vigilant law enforcement must be part of the equation if those communities are to be protected.  During this current stretch, the new programs are not in place and the police have been pulled back from law enforcement.  The results have not been good as violent crime has spiked.

The program that gained the most attention in the Giuliani era was the attention paid to nuisance issues - the guys who washed car windows on the street corner were given misdemeanor summonses, etc.  In our part of the world, the high crime zone, what the police who weren't on the take would do is stop all traffic at certain areas and then check the license plates for violations like parking tickets, use that as the way to search the car, and take it from there.  So they did that on Sunday from 9-12.  Because the idea was the evildoers were just then coming from the clubs and would be half asleep and fall for the trap.  But - this made it impossible for any of our folks with cars to get to church.  We got them to stop doing that at that time and on those corners, after lengthy negotiations.  We were being punished by a police tactic.

My opinion is that bad guys should be in jail, that gun control is absolutely necessary in a big city connected to strict laws with enforcement on those who violate those laws.  And that's what in my opinion actually drove crime down.  People who had done the bad stuff paid for it.  People who were carrying around weapons without reason paid with jail sentences.  The nuisance stuff was not my favorite at all, because in many cases it just hassled homeless people, of which we have plenty in our neighborhood who mostly need a place to lay their heads at night.

Dave Benke